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Thread: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

  1. #61
    Registered User doc martin's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    A teacher and his/her demo may, if they're lucky get around to dancing with everyone in the class once...possibly even twice during the night, depending on size of class.
    I think you would be hard pushed to do that every evening. I was thinking more in terms of using your powers of observation to spot where your help would be most usefully applied. I am sure everybody would benefit from some impartial one to one advice, but I am also sure that you notice some things that everybody in the venue would benefit from being eradicated, especially if they occur in more experienced dancers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    So say for example I or Melanie had 'adjusted' somebody and we'd had only one chance to do this all night...is it still my fault that they then revert back to their original self as soon as we walk away and dance with somebody else...or do the rest of the class members have a responsibility to ensure the 'new adjusted' standard is then maintained.
    Well, as someone says earlier in the thread " You can lead a Norse to oughter but you can't make him think". So, no it is not your fault if you can't get through to someone. If someone enjoys their bad habit, you will not cure them of it by telling them it is a bad habit - look at all the people who hang around here all the time for example.

    I guess I'm thinking more in terms of an 'on average' type of thing. If you can decrease the average amount of bad habits per punter, then some of the bad habits will die out because nobody will see them to copy them. That's not saying that people aren't perfectly capable of inventing their own bad habits from scratch, but I suspect most are picked up from somebody else.

  2. #62
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by doc martin
    Well, as someone says earlier in the thread " You can lead a Norse to oughter but you can't make him think". So, no it is not your fault if you can't get through to someone.
    We're probably getting into general teaching/instructional theory now, which I imagine is something a proper dance teacher should know about.

    I still think the teacher bears some responsibility - in the same way as the leader bears some resposibility for the quality individual dances. I wouldn't say "It's always the teacher's fault", that's too strong, but I thnk there are analogies.

    Quote Originally Posted by doc martin
    If someone enjoys their bad habit, you will not cure them of it by telling them it is a bad habit look at all the people who hang around here all the time for example.

  3. #63
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    If a class seems to be developing a bad habit then I personally think then the responsibility lies firmly with the teacher. On a mass scale then the bad habit should be addressed as a key point during the teaching of the class. A typical example would be beat 3 of the first move where you twist the lady out to the side. At first a lot of leaders twist the lady out and leave the left hand/arm high, up at face level ...not good, instead they're s'posed to take the left hand out and down towards the ladies far hip etc etc, in turn removing the safety issue that the incorrect action brings along with it! Getting back to the point...if this persistently happens, the teacher 'should' be able to see it and rectify the problem. However, what normally happens in the class environment is people have a wee natter and so miss out on these useful/important/safety points and thus continue to try and knock their partners block off. In the perfect world the class would all arrive bang on time, the class would start bang on time and everybody would be silent during the teaching of the class..... ..and to top it all off...get the moves!

    I'm gonna' blame the venue manager...if his desk was tidier then people would get the moves better .

    j.

    p.s. perth venue manager, smiley bob...rocks!

  4. #64
    Ceroc Teacher Little Em's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    I dont think the teachers r responsible.......

    as JB said above..... if peeps are busy chatting up the girl/boy they are with and not listening they will not hear what the teacher is saying therefore cannot pick up on the 'helpful' hints!

    if it is something that the WHOLE class is doing then maybe the teacher is doing it too. and doesn realise? how will that one be solved???

    BUT....... if people are not listening then there is only so much time the teacher can spend standing n waiting in silence until peeps be quiet again! and who wants to do that all the time... that wouldn b fun!

    so.... some peeps make a rod for their own bad habits by not listening in the first place.

    so .... i am going to place the blame on the assistant venue mangaer for not putting stage lights on quick enough an then peeps cant see me anyway!!
    so its their fault!!

    Em

  5. #65
    Registered User Keith J's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Well, objectively in the accepted format of the classes, the teachers are not allowed to dwell in the negative, and build on the positive, it would not be good for us to stand there and say' don't do this it is a bad habit'. Basically there is not time either in 40-45 minute format lessons.
    Certainly side classes I teach for beginners and improvers we like to do a 'try not to', & 'if you feel pain here' refrain etc.
    so self crtitique is also requires how many of us actually think what does this look like?

  6. #66
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    There's a good psychological reason for not using negative expressions like "don't" - which is that the subconscious tends to filter the negative but the rest of the message 'sticks' - as in "don't put beans up your nose" (anyone's eyes watering?)

    But you *can* give the same message by thinking about your phrasing.

    I agree that it's not helpful ( :irony: ) to say "Don't use your thumbs" but to hell with saying "try not to use your thumbs" - [ Yoda ] 'Do or do not, there is no try'.

    "Keep your thumbs away/pointing towards the ceiling/off your partner's hand" is a clear instruction that is not, IMO, negatively expressed.

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    ~ I don't think this can really be used as an excuse - the information is out there for those who want to find it.
    But someone needs to tell them what to look for before they can find it.

  8. #68
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Agree, which is why I said in an earlier post:

    Quote Originally Posted by me, up there somewhere
    It's only mostly up to the individuals though - teachers/taxis do have to take some responsibility for making sure that the information people need is available to them - by actually teaching the correct handhold, for example (there are a number of venues that don't ).
    Really, the handhold is a simplistic example. For "more being out there", I was thinking about fundamentals such as lead and follow - usually mentioned in review classes to at least some degree, enough IMO that people COULD find out more from taxis/teachers on an individual level or find out about suitable workshops etc.

  9. #69
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    I agree to a certain extent about the use of specific language. Beginners IMO should never really hear the words "don't" or "wrong" as they have purely a negative effect, normally, on the class as a whole. However, when I taught intermediate's at Perth, I liked to talk to them as the adults they were and the fact of the matter was that they were all my pals anyway and so I knew I could get away with saying certain things. I think this comes in relation to your relevant location in the country. To explain I'll go as far to say that the Scot's don't like (or at least in my class they didn't) any pussy footing around...just tell it like it is. And I found that the level and speed of response came far quicker if what they were doing was pointed out as being incorrect. I know it's not necessarily advocated from a teaching point of view, but it worked for us. By standing on stage and saying, "yeah, it's looking ok but it'd be even better if it looked like this..." in essence means that, yes, you can carry on doing it that way rather than the right way because your way is 'ok'. Tell someone however that by doing it in this manner is wrong and they make sure they don't do it if for nothing else that they don't want to be the person in the class that does the move or whatever...wrong. It's a bit of a harsh way of doing things but then I was lucky enough to have a class of intermediate dancers who came to dance rather than purely for the social aspect of things.

    j.

    p.s. intermediates were only ever taught 3 moves as well. This allowed for far more detail in the teaching and really (hopefully) clear explanations of why some things were or were not done.

  10. #70
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    (H? What sort of a name is that? )
    If it's good enough for a member of Steps, surely it's good enough for a Ceroc™ teacher?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    p.s. intermediates were only ever taught 3 moves as well. This allowed for far more detail in the teaching and really (hopefully) clear explanations of why some things were or were not done.
    That sounds eminently sensible. There are a number of venues around here that teach up to 6 moves in the Intermediate class. Now that makes it hard to learn & remember moves!

  11. #71
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by littleemc-central
    I dont think the teachers r responsible.......

    as JB said above..... if peeps are busy chatting up the girl/boy they are with and not listening they will not hear what the teacher is saying therefore cannot pick up on the 'helpful' hints!
    I agree there's not much you can do for those not paying attention. But although most won't pick up all the technical details, I think the teacher's attitude has a big influence on the dance style at a venue. If they do lots of big, flamboyant moves, and have an attitude of "on balance or not, you're going to be here on beat 7", then you're probably not going to see a lot of leaders concentrating on subtlety.

    And even if you're not actively 'teaching' after the class, you are still setting an example by how you behave. I've seen many teachers dance only with the top few dancers at their venue, or even exclusively with their demo partner! Not surprising to see "refusal rows" in that environment. I was also particularly unimpressed when I once saw the teacher doing big spinny aerials at his (very crowded) venue during freestyle.

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    If it's good enough for a member of Steps, surely it's good enough for a Ceroc™ teacher?!


    That sounds eminently sensible. There are a number of venues around here that teach up to 6 moves in the Intermediate class. Now that makes it hard to learn & remember moves!
    I found that anything above a 25 beat routine would cause problems when coming to remember the moves....and that roughly equated to about 3 moves. .

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Being a maths teacher in the day job, there seems to be many pertinent points in this thread, many of which come straight from the more pedagogical theory in the classroom. The big difference however is that the Ceroc adult audience generally have it within their power to 'behave' and presumably always want to be there? Not always condusive to a learning environment, which I would guess has to be the major consideration in a Ceroc class (??).

    A few ideas:

    (1) As a teacher, in the typical demonstration practice lesson (which Ceroc isn't far from), its partly my job to observe what students are doing wrong and then correct it in a whole class environment. The difference of course is that I have the option to go back into whole class teaching at any point. Nevertheless, the ceroc teacher could pick the worst done move of the four and include that move in the next weeks routine, focussing on Key Points (no need to let the class know exactly why).
    (2) The best learning done is by practice and figuring out why something you're doing does or does not work for yourselves. Coincidentally, I have found this is quite often a way that new moves (or variations) are born.
    (3) If the basic teaching is incorrect, then the class are sure to pick up this error in their dancing. It seems to me important that teachers decide exactly what and how they are going to teach it, and stick to that (the traditional lesson plan). Erratic words or demonstration lead to confusion - only this week a teacher taught a 'footwork framed move' saying that the leading right hand should be on the ladies hip + no mention of frame, and then demo-ing with a ballroom frame leading from the shoulderblade. Annoying!
    (4) Demonstrate at a level which the class can reach. I've seen some teachers do the tricks & flicks & thrills & spills in the demo of a move. Having said that, its gotta be a fine line between achievable and challenging, with the mixed-ability nature of a ceroc class making very difficult to pitch.

  14. #74
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladrags
    4) Demonstrate at a level which the class can reach. I've seen some teachers do the tricks & flicks & thrills & spills in the demo of a move. Having said that, its gotta be a fine line between achievable and challenging, with the mixed-ability nature of a ceroc class making very difficult to pitch.
    That's one of the problems really, isn't it. If everything is always done at the level which all the people in the class can reach, then a significant percentage of that class are going to find it too easy, and will be bored.

    I don't see that there's a problem teaching classes that you expect the majority of the class to struggle with - and not achieve. Provided that it's on an occasional basis - and possibly mentioned in advance. Else, the more advanced members of the class are not going to have any incentive to keep on coming.

    Even if some/most of the people in the class don't get it, they will still have learnt something, which will hopefully make it easier next time they see a routine like that. And when I do put something more difficult into classes, I'm always more than willing to go over it afterwards with anyone who has struggled, they only have to ask.

  15. #75
    Registered User Icey's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsable for pupils bad habbits?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    Sarcastically even.

    I name and shame Joe at Chesham. The epidemic of death grips at that venue was a factor in me deciding that it wasn't worth the distance any more.
    To drag this thread back up and make an update ...

    On Monday at Chesham Gordon was making a BIG DEAL of this in the beginners and intermediate class by asking the girls to put up their hand if their lead was using his thumb to hold on to them.

    Big gold star to Gordon IMO

  16. #76
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?



    and a too - he's been teaching there for a while I gather, and it has made a difference, IMO (went there recently after a break of several weeks).

  17. #77
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsable for pupils bad habbits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Icey
    On Monday at Chesham Gordon was making a BIG DEAL of this in the beginners and intermediate class by asking the girls to put up their hand if their lead was using his thumb to hold on to them.
    Did he also ask the boys to hold up their hands if their follower was using her thumbs to hold on?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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