Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

[Gadget]

Inspired from a few posts in the Exclusivity thread and elsewhere:

(With especial refernce to "Yankers"...)

If a teacher has some inappropriate dancers in their regular class, should they be singled out by the teacher/taxis? Should the class have an emphisis to eliminate this? Should regular dancers report "feedback" on dancers to taxis/teachers for improvement?

If the teacher discovers a few beginners developing bad habbits (followers leading, bouncing,...) should there be something to remedy it? should it be left to the Taxis? Should the source be found and trained better (Taxis or long-term dancers who think they are helping)

How does this translate to a workshop enviroment?

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I think the worst bad habits that I constantly witness are ineffective listening and observation skills!

[under par]

(With especial refernce to "Yankers"...)

If a teacher has some inappropriate dancers in their regular class, should they be singled out by the teacher/taxis? Should the class have an emphisis to eliminate this? Should regular dancers report "feedback" on dancers to taxis/teachers for improvement?

I

I think yes.

If teachers spend enough time post class dealing with their punters by dancing with them and being aware of others concerns then they will become aware of the problematical dancers.

They should take remedial action even if this becomes a free private lesson, it will eventually benefit all the other punters, leading to a higher satisfaction level follwed by better retention hopefully.

[LMC]

I agree with UP - only problem is that the teacher doing "all the work" will only pick up bad habits in dancers of the opposite sex to the teacher. Plus if the teacher is dancing all the time - which they would have to, to get round sufficient people, when are they going to do the 10 minute remedials?

Perhaps the answer is to train taxi dancers (and demos?) to spot problems - so they can encourage people with difficulties to go to wherever the teacher is waiting to do the mini-style/technique classes - out in the corridor or in the review class room or wherever.

I think Franck's Stirling classes are a fantastic idea, and I would really like to see these replicated in *every* venue - maybe ditch the intermediate class once every six weeks or so in favour of teaching some "basic skills". Don't list dates of skills classes or do them 'regularly' - as and when, but every few weeks would be better, otherwise half the people who really need them would probably avoid them . You might get sulks and complaints from move monsters, but again, taxis, the demo and teachers can address this by telling everyone how much these techniques will improve their dancing and encouraging the "sought after" dancers to attend the class too so the resistant "I have nothing to learn" people are shown by example.

[Andy McGregor]

Of course teachers are responsible for the education of their pupils.

At my classes I pick out people who are developing bad habits or seem frustrated with their progress rate. I invite them to come along for 15 minutes before the class so I can give them individual attention. This applies to both men and women (I knew learning to follow would come in handy).

During the class I sometimes spot people with a bad habit and have little talks I've worked out where I tell the whole class about bad habits some people can pick up. And the next week I will have a lesson where I teach the travelling return which requires smooth & slotted dancing - the teaching of which irons out bad habits as you really can't bounce your hand or dance in a giant circle with this particular move.

Having said all that, you will see people at my classes with bad habits - they're usually visiting from a class down the road

[clevedonboy]

Yes they are, but can they eliminate bad habits within their teaching model?

Problems (these aren't criticisms)
Large numbers of couples (many of them new each week)
Teaching from the stage
Always doing the move at the same time as the class

Given the above it will be difficult to spot individual problems while teaching

So it's up to the teacher to get around as many dancers as possible in say 45 minutes - and of course teey won't be the ones who need help, since all the keeners are after the teachers attention while the needers are in the bar or 'avin a fag (sorry that' too sweeping a generalisation I know but I hope you get the drift).

So Taxi dancers seem to be the answer shame that many Leroc classes don't have them.

[under par]

I think the worst bad habits that I constantly witness are ineffective listening and observation skills!

Sorry! did you say something i wasn't really looking ?

[Icey]

I'd like to add my two pence worth on teachers that don't mention fundamental points. My example is leaders gripping their followers with their thumbs

A franchise I attend quite frequently makes minimal or no mention of this as far as I can tell. As a result quite a few of the leaders have a death grip which really hurts. When I've talked to some of these leaders I'll get a mixed bag of responses along the lines of some that simply didn't realise that it hurt, some that do realise and are trying to get out of the habit and some that just shrug and say no one else has complained, why are you? The teacher did once make a comment in the intermediate class at the insistance of LMC but he did it begrudgingly and no more has been heard on the matter.

[LMC]

... The teacher did once make a comment in the intermediate class at the insistance of LMC but he did it begrudgingly and no more has been heard on the matter.

Sarcastically even.

I name and shame Joe at Chesham. The epidemic of death grips at that venue was a factor in me deciding that it wasn't worth the distance any more.

[David Bailey]

The teacher does of course have an influence on the styles and habits of his/her students - for example, it took me years to shake off being seen as a "Mike dancer"

But that's not the only factor, so "responsible" is maybe a bit too strong. A good teacher should of course work to minimize bad habits, and emphasize this in the class - but yes, I think on an individual basis, the taxi dancers are better placed to spot and correct these habits than the teacher.

[Gadget]

Some really well thought out points above

I think the worst bad habits that I constantly witness are ineffective listening and observation skills!

hmmm... "ineffective listening"; I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by the term - draw a small semi-circle to the left translates to draw a semi-circle and to hell with the size. Yes?
If so, shouldn't the teacher be emphisising the relevant information more? Watching for people doing "Big" and making point of showing "small"?

Observation skills: should a teacher really be relying on the pupils watching and learnig that way, or should they be pointing out clearer what to be watching for?


What is "worrying" me is some of the venues where there is a known issue amoung regulars that is not being addressed.

And what do teachers at weekenders and workshops have to do to specially cater for people with these dancing dissabilities? Should they cater for them? If they don't then the rest of the pupils attending the workshop could be suffering. If they do, are they not "lowering" the level for the rest of the pupils? Is there a balance? or better; an encompasing way that the material can be taught?

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What I mean by ineffective listening skills is that most things that people complain about is usually covered in class, the problem often lies in the fact that people do not listen properly to what is being saidespecially those that need it most.

Also observation makes up an intergral part of communiacation and through watching you can see that teachers/advanced dancers are not yanking, use thumbs, have firm grips, bounce, throwing people of balance etc etc.

Like any skill that you learn to become really compitant at it there comes a point when you must start teaching yourself and translate to feeling what the teacher is saying and doing.

This is the greatest hinderence on peoples ability to learn in my mind.

[Piglet]

What I mean by ineffective listening skills is that most things that people complain about is usually covered in class, the problem often lies in the fact that people do not listen properly to what is being saidespecially those that need it most.

Yep! I've noticed this with some leads definitely. I hear what the teacher has said and I often wonder why they can't hear the same information.

However, that being said, I am aware that we all learn in different ways:

some learn better from hearing things;
some learn better from reading things;
some learn better from looking at pictures;
some learn better from experiencing what it is they are supposed to be learning;
some learn from a mixture of the above (also I've possibly missed out something - I'm not a perfect student )
some learn better from listening to a similar-level peer who can explain it in their [more simplistic] term (but I really don't think this applies to our ceroc classes - this is more what I see in the primary school - some children are more open to listening to their peers than the dreaded teacher - ie ME!)

Perhaps having TV screens with written instructions and pictures would help the percentage of people who can't learn the way I do? Which would be a mix of the hearing and watching and experiencing (which should cover most students - alas, not enough though).

[Gadget]

What I mean by ineffective listening skills is that most things that people complain about is usually covered in class, the problem often lies in the fact that people do not listen properly to what is being saidespecially those that need it most.

But to the solutions to problems, you first have to ba aware of the problems in the first place. The you need to work out if they apply to you. Only then can you work on learning to improve them.

Also observation makes up an intergral part of communiacation and through watching you can see that teachers/advanced dancers are not yanking, use thumbs, have firm grips, bounce, throwing people of balance etc etc.

I agree, but shouldn't the teacher be pointing out "Look: I'm not 'yanking' - the motion is smooth." or "look at my hand hold: when turning, my hand changes to a flat palm-to-palm connection that simply slides freely - you can't do that when holding on with thumbs." or "when dancing, my body may move up and down, or side to side; but watch the level of my hands - no bounce" or "You don't stir the lady or 'push' at her; give her a chance to follow"...
I have heard all of the above from various teachers on stage in normal classes. Is it that hard to teach?

Like any skill that you learn to become really compitant at it there comes a point when you must start teaching yourself and translate to feeling what the teacher is saying and doing.

Yes - but the teacher's job is to teach - to aid in the pupils learning. I've been going to beginners classes, intermediate classes and workshops for years... I'm still learning... from all of them. Seldom I learn from what they actually verbally say, but I wouldn't say that's not a reflection on their teaching; the fact that I can learn from their actions is perhaps more indicative.

[MartinHarper]

Also observation makes up an intergral part of communiacation and through watching you can see that teachers/advanced dancers are not yanking, use thumbs, have firm grips, bounce, throwing people of balance etc etc.

Most teachers/demos do some sort of "bounce" thing when demoing a move without music.

[TheTramp]

But to the solutions to problems, you first have to ba aware of the problems in the first place. The you need to work out if they apply to you. Only then can you work on learning to improve them.

I think that you're missing the point here Gadget.

There are a good majority of people in any class who don't really pay attention to what the teacher is saying. These people aren't aware of the problems. Aren't listening to what the teacher is saying. And aren't really that interested in learning to improve.

As I've said before. For most people, it's a social dance. They come along once a week, do the class, dance some tracks. Sit out some and chat. If you could say to them, "I have a magic wand, and if I wave it, you'll turn into a fantastic dancer", would ask you to wave the wand. But aren't really interested in working to become better.

I don't think that you can hold the teachers responsible for those people.

Of course, I may just be way to cynical here. But I don't think so...

[TheTramp]

Most teachers/demos do some sort of "bounce" thing when demoing a move without music.

Most? Or just the ones in Gloucester area??

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I agree, but shouldn't the teacher be pointing out "Look: I'm not 'yanking' - the motion is smooth." or "look at my hand hold: when turning, my hand changes to a flat palm-to-palm connection that simply slides freely - you can't do that when holding on with thumbs." or "when dancing, my body may move up and down, or side to side; but watch the level of my hands - no bounce" or "You don't stir the lady or 'push' at her; give her a chance to follow"...
I have heard all of the above from various teachers on stage in normal classes. Is it that hard to teach?

No it is not that hard to teach and I and other teachers say it often but if people don't listen and look in an educational manner then you can talk and demonstrate until the cows come home. There is only so much you can say in a class as well.

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But to the solutions to problems, you first have to ba aware of the problems in the first place. The you need to work out if they apply to you. Only then can you work on learning to improve them.


Yes - but the teacher's job is to teach - to aid in the pupils learning. I've been going to beginners classes, intermediate classes and workshops for years... I'm still learning... from all of them. Seldom I learn from what they actually verbally say, but I wouldn't say that's not a reflection on their teaching; the fact that I can learn from their actions is perhaps more indicative.

This is the problem though isn't it...self awareness how does one get it and is it the teachers' responsabilty (barring obvious safety concerns) to keep pushing if some people really don't want to get it.

Often you can pick those who think they know it all and those who want to learn teachers are facilitates to finding the knowledge but they can't make them drink. Those that want to learn will so because they wish it not because the teacher tell it so and this often comes down to personal reasons.

[MartinHarper]

Most? Or just the ones in Gloucester area??

I've seen the same thing at weekenders and from guest teachers, so I'm pretty sure it's not a local thing. I think it comes from the need to emphasise the beat in their bodies to compensate visually for the lack of a musical beat.
Possibly I'm seeing something that's not actually there. Wasn't someone saying something about poor observational skills?