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Thread: US vs UK

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    Registered User Msfab's Avatar
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    US vs UK

    Question to the wise ones!

    Im in the very long process of writing my thesis. A question has arisen, ''Why do Americans use Z instead of S, when writing words like Characterisation, Colonise, Apologise, Analyse ...etc''

    Ive only found one reason why this difference exists
    The only rationale for this predicament is the American's strong desire to win at Scrabble (a "Z" scores 10 versus only 1 for an "S"). (http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/awadmail54.html)

    Why?

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: US vs UK

    I assumed they just did it to make a slightly different language as they hated the English and also because it just made more sense. A Z in a word which has a Z sound is plainly wacky and all that, but bless em it does make more sense than using an S.

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    Registered User Rhythm King's Avatar
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    Re: US vs UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Msfab
    Question to the wise ones!

    Im in the very long process of writing my thesis. A question has arisen, ''Why do Americans use Z instead of S, when writing words like Characterisation, Colonise, Apologise, Analyse ...etc''

    Ive only found one reason why this difference exists
    The only rationale for this predicament is the American's strong desire to win at Scrabble (a "Z" scores 10 versus only 1 for an "S"). (http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/awadmail54.html)

    Why?
    A reasonable explanation is at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ise1.htm

    One explanation given is that the Royal Family, being of German extraction, used to pronounce their z in very hard "tz" way, so using the s softened it for them. Courtiers copied the way they spoke, to be accepted by them. This gave rise to the "upper crust" style of English called Received Pronunciation. An example is "Thames". The English pronounce it as "Tems" (as a German would say it) but in Connecticut, there is a river of the same name with the "th" pronounced as in "the".

    Have you read Melvyn Bragg's "The Adventure of English"? Hard work, but interesting - probably worked better as a tv show.

    I thought you were a chemist?

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    Registered User Msfab's Avatar
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    Re: US vs UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythm King
    A reasonable explanation is at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ise1.htm

    I thought you were a chemist?
    Thanks RK!

    Most definitley not a chemist (I still have trouble trying to work out my moles and molars!) Im a Molecular Biologist/Microbiologist, well im trying to be at least!
    Anyway, I still have to write english (if only I could get a Phd without writing a word!)

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: US vs UK

    Wikipedia doesn't really explain why though.

    In fact, I think it'd be hard to find a better reason that "because"...

    It's worth noting though that the OED prefers "-ize" to "-ise", though in my Shorter Oxford they don't explain why.

    Fowler (A Dictionary of Modern English Usage) of course gives the full story. The issue is about where the word originally came from, how it's pronounced, and whether we're feeling friendly towards the French...

    Most "-ize" words come from old Greek or Latin words that have a "z" in their ending. However, the English language has had a lot of influence from French, and they have changed all their z's into s's. At one time this was thought the thing to do in English, and so you see we now have all these words that should be spelt with a z, but "normally" spelt with a s.

    The influence of the French couldn't have been as strong in America on their early dictionary writers, so they use z's much more freely.

    When you think about the pronunciation, the z usually makes more sense.

    Fowler does list a number of exceptions that should "must" be spelt with a s, though many of the words he lists are often seen spelt with a z.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  7. #7
    TiggsTours
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    Re: US vs UK

    Actually, I hate to say it, but this is one occurrence where the American's are really using proper English!

    In old English, the letter S was only used as the soft sounding S (e.g. elsewhere, somewhere, soft, silver) whereas the letter Z was used as a hard S (e.g. whereaz, uzed, customize).

    The influences of other languages on our own meant that this gradually changed so that the Z was, overtime, replaced by the Z in many words. When America was first founded (apart from by the Native Americans, obviously) this was already well in process, hence them using the S as a hard sound in alot of the same places as us, however, in England, this process continued for many years until the language we currently use virtually replaced the Z with the S completely!

    I'm afraid we may have made up the language, but they stuck to it!

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    Re: US vs UK

    Ok, since you are all fumbling in the dark without a torch (or a stick or a rope - which is just poor preparation) I suppose I should shed some light on the subject.

    The letter Z is a Greek derivation or well some Greek letter (obviously). As such Her Majesty's government had to pay a fee each time we used the letter in written form. Obviously this was becoming a large burden and so we simply substituted the S for the letter Z, substantially reducing our monthly outgoings to the Greeks. In a later move we stole the Elgin Marbles as well - that'll learn em.

    This dropping of the Z, never occured in America as they very rarely write stuff down, and they have a lot more money so they could afford to pay the greeks and in exchange they were allowed to open up Deli's in many of their major cities.

    Honestly, what are they teaching the kids in schools these days??

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    Re: US vs UK

    It's because they're ztupid

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    Registered User Rhythm King's Avatar
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    Re: US vs UK

    Quote Originally Posted by ToeTrampler
    It's because they're ztupid
    Oi! Just KIZZ will you?

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    Re: US vs UK

    I just have to post this, the thread reminded me of it so I went and found it from an old email (yes, I'm a hoarder). Not all relevant, it was written over a year ago so the dates are a bit silly, and it's longer than most of Gadget's posts, but it's still hilarious.



    To the citizens of the United States of America,

    In the light of your failure to elect a competent President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today. Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories, except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new Prime Minister (The Right Honourable Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a Minister for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

    1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and 'neighbour', skipping the letter 'U' is nothing more than laziness on your part. Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters. You will end your love affair with the letter 'Z' (pronounced 'zed' not 'zee') and the suffix "ize" will be replaced by the suffix "ise". You will learn that the suffix 'burgh is pronounced 'burra' e.g. Edinburgh. You are welcome to respell Pittsburgh as 'Pittsberg' if you can't cope with correct pronunciation. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed". There will be no more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer show. If you're not old enough to cope with bad language then you shouldn't have chat shows. When you learn to develop your vocabulary then you won't have to use bad language as often.

    2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u' and the elimination of "-ize".

    3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to cockney, upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). You will also have to learn how to understand regional accents - Scottish dramas such as "Taggart" will no longer be broadcast with subtitles. While we're talking about regions, you must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon". If you persist in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g. Texasshire, Floridashire, Louisianashire.

    4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the good guys. Hollywood will be required to cast English actors to play English characters. British sit-coms such as "Men Behaving Badly" or "Red Dwarf" will not be re-cast and watered down for a wishy-washy American audience who can't cope with the humour of occasional political incorrectness.

    5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get confused and give up half way through.

    6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind of football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are hoping to get together at least a US Rugby sevens side by 2005. You should stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the 'World Series' for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.15% of you are aware that there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. Instead of baseball, you will be allowed to play a girls' game called "rounders" which is baseball without fancy team strip, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs.

    7. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous in public than a vegetable peeler. Because we don't believe you are sensible enough to handle potentially dangerous items, you will require a permit if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

    8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday, but only in England. It will be called "Indecisive Day".

    9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts. You will start driving on the left with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

    10. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips. Fries aren't even French, they are Belgian, though 97.85% of you (including the guy who discovered fries while in Europe) are not aware of a country called Belgium. Those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called "crisps". Real chips are thick-cut and fried in animal fat. The traditional accompaniment to chips is beer which should be served warm and flat. Waitresses will be trained to be more aggressive with customers.

    11. As a sign of penance 5 grams of sea salt per cup will be added to all tea made within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, this quantity to be doubled for tea made within the city of Boston itself.

    12. The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all, it is lager. From November 1st only proper British Bitter will be referred to as "beer", and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as "Lager". The substances formerly known as "American Beer" will henceforth be referred to as "Near-Frozen Knat's Urine", with the exception of the product of the American Budweiser company whose product will be referred to as "Weak Near-Frozen Knat's Urine". This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in Pilsen, Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.

    13. From November 10th the UK will harmonise petrol (or "Gasoline" as you will be permitted to keep calling it until April 1st 2005) prices with the former USA. The UK will harmonise its prices to those of the former USA and the Former USA will, in return, adopt UK petrol prices (roughly $6/US gallon - get used to it).

    14. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not adult enough to be independent.

    John Cleese
    formerly of Monty Python's Flying Circus BBC, speaking on behalf of the United Kingdom

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: US vs UK

    I remember that one... and have just turfed it out, together with the US response...

    SUBJECT: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE

    To the citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland:

    We welcome your concern about our electoral process. It must be exciting for you to see a real Republic in action, even if from a distance. As always we're amused by your quaint belief that you're actually a world power. The sun never sets on the British Empire! Right-o chum!

    However, we regretfully have to decline your offer for intervention. On the other hand, it would be amusing to see you try to enforce your new policy (for the 96.3% of you that seem to have forgotten that you have little to no real power). After much deliberation, we have decided to continue our tradition as the longest running democratic republic. It seems that switching to a monarchy is in fact considered a "backwards step" by the majority of the world.

    To help you rise from your current anachronistic status, we have compiled a series of helpful suggestions that we hope you adopt:

    1. Realize that language is an organic structure, and that you aren't always correct in your pronunciation or spelling. Let's use your "aluminium" example. Sir Humphrey Davy (an Englishman) invented the name "aluminum" (note spelling) for the metal. However, in common usage the name evolved into "aluminium" to match the naming convention of other elements. In 1925 the United States decided to switch back to the original spelling and pronunciation of the word, at which point we dominated the aluminum industry. We'd also like to point out that the process of actually producing aluminum was developed by an American and a Frenchman (not an Englishman).

    However, we'd like to thank you for the Oxford English Dictionary. It's an interesting collection, considering that over 10,000 of the words in the original edition were submitted by a crazy American civil-war veteran called Dr. William Charles Minor.

    2. Learn to distinguish the American and Canadian accents, and then we'll talk about the English and Australian accent issue.

    3. Review your basic arithmetic. (Hint 100 - 98.85 = 1.15 and 100 - 97.85 = 2.15)

    4. If you want English actors as good guys, then make your own movies. Don't rely on us for your modern popular culture. We liked "Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels", "Trainspotting", and "The Full Monty". We've also heard good things about this "Billy Elliot". But one good movie a year doesn't exactly make a cultural powerhouse. However, you're doing pretty well with music, so keep up the good work on that front.

    5. It's inefficient to have a national anthem that changes its title whenever your monarch dies. Let's not forget that your national anthem has an extremely boring tune. We suggest switching to that Rule Brittania ditty, it's toetapping. Or maybe Elton John could adapt "Candle In The Wind" again for you guys.

    6. Improve at your national sport. Football? Soccer? This just in: United States gets fourth place in men's soccer at the 2000 Summer Olympics. United Kingdom? Not even close. By the way, impressive showing at Euro 2000. You almost managed to get through the tournament without having your fans start an international incident.

    7. Learn how to cook. England has some top notch candy. Salt 'n' Vinegar chips are quite yummy. However, there's a reason why the best food in your country is Indian or Chinese. Your contributions to the culinary arts are soggy beans, warm beer, and spotted dick. Perhaps when you finally realize the French aren't the spawn of satan they'll teach you how to cook.

    8. You're doing a terrible job at understanding cars. The obvious error is that you drive on the wrong side of the road. A second problem is pricing, it's cheaper to buy a car in Belgium and ship it to England than to buy a car in England. On the other hand, we like Jaguars and Aston Martins. That's why we bought the companies.

    9. We'll tell you who killed JFK when you apologize for "Teletubbies".

    Thank you for your time. Yu can now return to watching bad Australian soap operas.

    P.S. — Regarding WW2: You're Welcome.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: US vs UK

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    3. Review your basic arithmetic. (Hint 100 - 98.85 = 1.15 and 100 - 97.85 = 2.15)
    I noticed that, but I was trying to go pedant-light this week (it's tough, but I'm sticking it out).

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    6. Improve at your national sport. Football? Soccer? This just in: United States gets fourth place in men's soccer at the 2000 Summer Olympics. United Kingdom? Not even close. By the way, impressive showing at Euro 2000. You almost managed to get through the tournament without having your fans start an international incident.
    Hmmm, not much of a convincing argument there, although of course I'm biased by being an avid follower of the United Kingdom football team.

    Is there a "response to the response"? 'Coz this could go on forever...

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: US vs UK

    The originals of these are really ancient (in internet terms anyway) - I first remember seeing the RoI that Tessa posted immediately after the G Bush/Al Gore vote counting fiasco ('96/'97? - I'll let someone with better political history/less lazy/more bothered post the exact year) - obviously it's been updated a bit since then...

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    Re: US vs UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythm King
    Oi! Just KIZZ will you?
    Apologiez

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