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Thread: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

  1. #101
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I think that the majority would agree with "Everyone should always accept a dance offer" as long as there was a "within reason" disclaimer. What we are arguing about is this reason and whether dancing with a dancer of lesser ability is an acceptable one.
    But in your previous post (that prompted my comment and Steve's), you said: (emphasis mine)
    Whether you agree or disagree with these codes does not matter - they are there. It is part of the social dance scene. If you disregard them and can dance well, then it can be assumed that you know these rules and are snubbing them.
    There may be a pefectly sound and acceptable reason - again, it does not matter - it is the action (or lack thereof) that goes against the dancer. Not the reasoning behind it.
    So which is it, Gadget? Is there a within reason disclaimer or not?

  2. #102
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I think that the majority would agree with "Everyone should always accept a dance offer" as long as there was a "within reason" disclaimer. What we are arguing about is this reason and whether dancing with a dancer of lesser ability is an acceptable one.
    Sorry. But that is NOT what you have been saying.

    (Yes, I know that I posted I wouldn't post on this matter any more But I'm not really posting on the matter, I'm posting on the change of tack!)

    Up until now, you have been posting the absolute "You should never turn down a dance". You have never accepted that there may be a qualified reason. I quite agree that all dancers should not use the "You're not good enough" reason for rejecting the offer of a dance. (My usual response when I ask someone to dance, and they say "I'm not good enough" is, "Good, I like bad girls!").



    On a personal level, one of the reasons that I don't like the "You can never, ever turn down a dance" thing. When I came back from Australia, I had a problem with my shoulder that required physio attention. At one of the venues I work* at, I was asked to dance right at the start of the evening by a lady that I don't really know that well, and have only danced with a couple of times previously to a fairly fast track. I explained to the lady that I had a problem with my shoulder shoulder, and probably wouldn't be dancing that night. At the end of the night, I had a couple of dances with ladies that I'd danced with plenty of times before, and trusted not to pull on my shoulder, to slow tracks. After the music had finished, the first lady gave me a lot of hassle about how I had turned her down, and wasn't allowed to turn her down, and then had danced with other ladies. Needless to say, I was quite put off and annoyed.


    *worked at, so had no choice, I had to be there
    Last edited by TheTramp; 4th-December-2005 at 12:55 PM.

  3. #103
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy
    I know of no social pressure that says you *must* ask complete strangers to dance whatever their standard.
    So, I asked a girl to dance, and she was a better dancer than me, and she graciously accepted. As we were finishing up, she asked - "would you ask my friend to dance? It's her first week". I was happy to oblige.

    Must be a provincial thing.

  4. #104
    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    ...
    Ah; laws. But laws are guidelines.
    ...
    What!!!

    Good god no!!!! Laws are definitely NOT guidelines!!!

    Break a law, and be prepared to suffer the consequences, the punishment inflicted by he (or those) imposing that law (prison, maybe)

    Guidelines are hints and tips to help (or guide) me along my way, often pulled together by those who have been there before. Ignoring guidelines may lead to pitfalls that others, previously, have encountered. Alternatively, it may lead down a new path and to pitfalls not yet encountered.

    As for Rules, personally I see rules being similar to Laws, but not quite so extreme

  5. #105
    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames

    Gloucester sounds a very scary place...
    Well, one of my haunts innit ;-O oooooo oooooo

    (But my cold bubbled up again so poor Lou was at least spared having to dance with me. Love to know who that lady (?) was. Native, or another visitor?)

  6. #106
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy
    No arguments there. I could tell you the story of the local smelly guy, but that would be uncouth
    I assumed dancing in a socially and physically acceptable manner included things like body odour.

    FWIW OT: I have seen reports that human beings have different body odours depending on their antibody make-up, and find people with the same anti-bodies have a less pleasant odour. The theory put forward was that this encouraged people to select mates with different antibodies so that their offspring would have the advantages of more disease resistance.

  7. #107
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard
    (But my cold bubbled up again so poor Lou was at least spared having to dance with me. Love to know who that lady (?) was. Native, or another visitor?)
    I did look around for you, dearheart, as you know I very much enjoy our dances. Shame about your cold.

    Wish I knew who she was, too. However, by the time he'd told me the tale and I'd asked him to point her out, it was right at the end of the evening and she'd already left. (Or at least he said she'd left. Thinking back, he was probably more worried about the consequences of the evil glare in my eye ).

    Not all of Gloucester dancers are that scary. Lots of them are very lovely indeed. However, I'd say that there's a lot more predatory women than we get in Bristol. Maybe they need to be that way, though, as there always seems to be quite an imbalance of numbers.

  8. #108
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    Not all of Gloucester dancers are that scary. Lots of them are very lovely indeed. However, I'd say that there's a lot more predatory women than we get in Bristol. Maybe they need to be that way, though, as there always seems to be quite an imbalance of numbers.
    I quite like the sound of Gloucester in a masochistic sort of way I've no idea where Gloucester is or how they dance there - but I do like the challenge of scary women. I think we need to mount a forumites mission to their next dance. I will dress as a nurd as I usually do when visiting a new venue and suggest we all do the same. Pens in the outside top pocket, beige trousers or grey trousers, tweed tie, Hush Puppies, etc. Come on Lou where and when?

  9. #109
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    So which is it, Gadget? Is there a within reason disclaimer or not?
    Both.
    When people apply it to themselves, it tends to be with the "within reason" disclaimer.
    When they witness it for themselves or are on the receiving end, it tends to be without the disclaimer.

    No-one is intentionally rude: The justification for refusal would always be "within reason" from anyone actually refusing. However it's the other side of the coin for the person being refused: They {normally} would need to be shown a good reason for being rejected...and it would have to seen to be upheld throught the whole night.

    From the person being refused's point of view, I stand by the first comment:
    There may be a pefectly sound and acceptable reason - again, it does not matter - it is the action (or lack thereof) that goes against the dancer. Not the reasoning behind it.
    From the person doing the refusing, I stand by the other comment:
    I think that the majority would agree with "Everyone should always accept a dance offer" as long as there was a "within reason" disclaimer.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Tramp
    Up until now, you have been posting the absolute "You should never turn down a dance". You have never accepted that there may be a qualified reason. I quite agree that all dancers should not use the "You're not good enough" reason for rejecting the offer of a dance.
    yes... and no.... an absolute "you should never turn down a dance." Is an absolute with an escape clause. If it was a true absolte then it would be "you will never turn down a dance."

    For the person being refused, there is seldom an accepted "qualified reason" It dosn't really matter what the reason is - the fact remains that they have been refused and the dancer refusing them was a better dancer. This rejection is furthered by the social ethos of not refusing.

    Can someone put together a list of possable "Qualified Reasons" that a dancer may be refused? (remembering that beginners get a pass untill they embrace the social scene) I'm sure that there are flaws in all of them.
    When I came back from Australia, I had a problem with my shoulder that required physio attention. At one of the venues I work* at, I was asked to dance right at the start of the evening by a lady that I don't really know that well, and have only danced with a couple of times previously to a fairly fast track. I explained to the lady that I had a problem with my shoulder shoulder, and probably wouldn't be dancing that night. At the end of the night, I had a couple of dances with ladies that I'd danced with plenty of times before, and trusted not to pull on my shoulder, to slow tracks. After the music had finished, the first lady gave me a lot of hassle about how I had turned her down, and wasn't allowed to turn her down, and then had danced with other ladies. Needless to say, I was quite put off and annoyed.
    I can understand her point: she approached, you said "no", then went and danced with someone else. Not just a personal rejection, but a public one.

    Your descision may have been made with the self-preservation in mind and may have been delivered with tact. However you could have made the descision not to dance. I have seen you only dance a couple of times in an evening, limping off the floor after each. But if it pains that much, why risk further injury - no matter the quality of the dancer something may go wrong. You're employed to be there to DJ: the fact that you are an added 'top' dancer to an evening is a bonus - not part of the 'contract' that has to be fulfilled.
    I am convinced that there could have been other ways to convince the said lady - "I have a sore shoulder and need to care for it: come back to me during a slower track". "I need to minimise the risk to my shoulder; can we take a rain-check untill next week?". "I've just finished physio and I'm not sure how my shoulder will hold up; I might have a gentle dance later, but this is too fast to risk it." ...etc. If you have to say "no" due to an inury, then IMHO it should just be an appologetic postponment.
    Even if you did accept, if you make a point of explaining before-hand then stopping mid-way through for some feedback or even with an appologetic "Sorry; I can't carry on" then IMHO that is much better than a "No" and then dancing with someone else.
    Last edited by Gadget; 4th-December-2005 at 09:33 PM.

  10. #110
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    There is only one rigid 'law' of dancing: don't cause harm. However there are several moral/ethical codes that exist where (MJ) dancers congregate. It is these that make the social 'togetherness' of a venue/night/class/event:
    - don't stand on the dance floor unless you are dancing.
    - don't carry drinks accross a floor.
    - don't walk through a floor with dancers on it.
    - etc.
    amoung these are the codes of
    - Accept every dance offer.
    - Dance with new faces and new dancers.
    Whether you agree or disagree with these codes does not matter - they are there. It is part of the social dance scene. If you disregard them and can dance well, then it can be assumed that you know these rules and are snubbing them.
    There may be a pefectly sound and acceptable reason - again, it does not matter - it is the action (or lack thereof) that goes against the dancer. Not the reasoning behind it.


    Correct: their decision. And if they are an experienced dancer, then they will know the social expectations of them by turning up at a class. By refusing to live up to these, by refusing to follow the social guidelines, they run the risk of branding themselves outside of acceptable social guidelines. And since they have placed themselves there, self-centred and elitist.

    Beginners don't yet know the social expectations and guidelines, so are therefore granted amnesty until they do.

    So this is the problem related to not saying "no" rather than problems related to getting yankers to stop yanking, letches to stop letching and stinkers to stop stinking?
    If this is the concern about refusal, then I would suggest that it is not the ethos of accepting every dance that needs to be softened, but the non-acceptance of other anti-social behaviours that needs strengthening. If you are standing up for the rights of one form of anti-social behaviour (ie refusal) then what does that imply about other forms like those mentioned above?

    And this is a problem with the social situation of "Must not refuse" and not one of "Confrontation"? If the dancer in question is unwilling to broach the subject to the problem partner, Taxis and Teachers are approachable about nuisance dancers. As are most experienced dancers.

    With the 'must dance' ethos, there is also more likleyhood of people like this being found and rehabilitated.

    There is no such thing as an unbreakable rule - even the "No harm" {I would inflict a small pain on my partner to avoid a larger pain} However I just hate the "It's OK to do what you want" and "I've paid; my money - I don't have to follow your rules."

    Everyone is following these 'rules'. Then someone says "I know that rule, but I'm going to step over it." Combine this with the fact that they are a good dancer and you get the summary: "I am too good for these rules to apply to me." or even worse; "I have paid good money so that these rules don't apply to me." This is where the perspecitve of "Elitist" or "Hotshot" dancers comes from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    New dancers enter a venue. They learn {social rules} from what is said from the stage, what the taxi's impart and what they observe. Teachers and Taxis advocate the above rules. Most people in the venue follow these rules. The beginners become intermediates. These rules become the social "norm".

    I think that the majority would agree with "Everyone should always accept a dance offer" as long as there was a "within reason" disclaimer. What we are arguing about is this reason and whether dancing with a dancer of lesser ability is an acceptable one.

    Obviously this can only be qualified by the better dancers. And if they are seen to be going against the social teachings and ethical codes that are given from the management, then I think it's perfectly understandable that they be branded as "Hotshots" or "Elitist" by the dancers of lesser ability.

    If you were brought up in a civilisation that practiced pologamy or capital punishment, then it wouldn't seem morally or ethically wrong. It's just a different culture. The laws in America differ from the laws here. They differ from state to state. Slightly different cultures. There is a culture on the Modern Jive scene that differs from almost every other social interaction 'hobby'. It even differs from ballroom, salsa, club, tango, or any other form of dance.

    When you step into a MJ venue, you are stepping into this culture. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, you may think that some of the social rules are wrong, you may not adhear to any of them. That is your choice. I'm not arguing about forcing anyone to adhear to any rules of social interaction: I'm just pointing out that by being aware of them and not following these rules, there is some justification in assigning a dancer the label of "Hotshot".

    It may have initially been The Collective that created this "pressure", however once the majority of dancers accept it, it becomes part of the social structure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Both.
    When people apply it to themselves, it tends to be with the "within reason" disclaimer.
    When they witness it for themselves or are on the receiving end, it tends to be without the disclaimer.

    No-one is intentionally rude: The justification for refusal would always be "within reason" from anyone actually refusing. However it's the other side of the coin for the person being refused: They {normally} would need to be shown a good reason for being rejected...and it would have to seen to be upheld throught the whole night.

    From the person being refused's point of view, I stand by the first comment:

    From the person doing the refusing, I stand by the other comment:


    yes... and no.... an absolute "you should never turn down a dance." Is an absolute with an escape clause. If it was a true absolte then it would be "you will never turn down a dance."

    For the person being refused, there is seldom an accepted "qualified reason" It dosn't really matter what the reason is - the fact remains that they have been refused and the dancer refusing them was a better dancer. This rejection is furthered by the social ethos of not refusing.

    Can someone put together a list of possable "Qualified Reasons" that a dancer may be refused? (remembering that beginners get a pass untill they embrace the social scene) I'm sure that there are flaws in all of them.
    I can understand her point: she approached, you said "no", then went and danced with someone else. Not just a personal rejection, but a public one.

    Your descision may have been made with the self-preservation in mind and may have been delivered with tact. However you could have made the descision not to dance. I have seen you only dance a couple of times in an evening, limping off the floor after each. But if it pains that much, why risk further injury - no matter the quality of the dancer something may go wrong. You're employed to be there to DJ: the fact that you are an added 'top' dancer to an evening is a bonus - not part of the 'contract' that has to be fulfilled.
    I am convinced that there could have been other ways to convince the said lady - "I have a sore shoulder and need to care for it: come back to me during a slower track". "I need to minimise the risk to my shoulder; can we take a rain-check untill next week?". "I've just finished physio and I'm not sure how my shoulder will hold up; I might have a gentle dance later, but this is too fast to risk it." ...etc. If you have to say "no" due to an inury, then IMHO it should just be an appologetic postponment.
    Even if you did accept, if you make a point of explaining before-hand then stopping mid-way through for some feedback or even with an appologetic "Sorry; I can't carry on" then IMHO that is much better than a "No" and then dancing with someone else.
    Ahh, the real Gadget returns. How well we all remember those long Gadget posts with affection - although I don't remember actually reading any of them

    There is a theory about William Shakespeare that his works are written by a whole team of writers. I believe this is also true for Gadget ...

    Perhaps Gadget should at least emulate the great Blaise Pascal who apologized to a reader for having written a long letter, arguing that he didn't have the time to write a short one.

  11. #111
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Ahh, the real Gadget returns. How well we all remember those long Gadget posts with affection - although I don't remember actually reading any of them
    Well, at this point Gadget seems to be arguing for/against both sides of the debate simultaneously; at this point I'm confused as to whether it's unreasonable to provide a reasonable excuse if you are unwilling to accept an unreasonable dance offer from a willing partner.

    I think we'll just have to leave him to it - after all,

    [Dirty Harry]
    A man's got to know his limitations...
    [/Dirty Harry]

  12. #112
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I quite like the sound of Gloucester in a masochistic sort of way
    ....
    Come on Lou where and when?
    There's nothing in Glos until after Xmas, I'm afraid. They've got a freestyle on 28th Dec in Churchdown, but it might be more fun to wait until they're back at the Walls Club.

    (Of course, if you can't wait that long, there's Cheltenham on Friday. Different franchise, but a large proportion of the same punters. (Although I gather that most masochists enjoy the wait & anticipation... ))


    Let's hang on until the new year. Maybe we can have a MFG?

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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    So, I asked a girl to dance, and she was a better dancer than me, and she graciously accepted. As we were finishing up, she asked - "would you ask my friend to dance? It's her first week". I was happy to oblige.

    Must be a provincial thing.
    No, it's not

    That is social pressure for an intermediate to ask a beginner to dance, but it's created at the time by the interaction, it's not part of an all-pervasive 'rule' as championed by some on here.
    I'm guessing without thinking too hard as no coffee yet, that there are plenty of 'situations' where (nice) pressure is applied to get intermediates to dance with beginners, or sometimes vice-versa. All I'm arguing against is this perceived rule that it is an intermediates 'duty' to dance with XXX number of beginners every night.

  14. #114
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    she asked - "would you ask my friend to dance? It's her first week". I was happy to oblige. Must be a provincial thing.
    Course it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy
    there are plenty of 'situations' where (nice) pressure is applied to get intermediates to dance with beginners, or sometimes vice-versa.
    Exactly. It's invariably a lovely compliment when this happens. It's nice to be thought of by someone experienced, as someone that will give a beginner a nice dance. And the better dancer the asker is, the more of a compliment it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy
    All I'm arguing against is this perceived rule that it is an intermediates 'duty' to dance with XXX number of beginners every night.
    Quite. Not the same thing at all.

  15. #115
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I quite like the sound of Gloucester in a masochistic sort of way I've no idea where Gloucester is or how they dance there - but I do like the challenge of scary women. I think we need to mount a forumites mission to their next dance. I will dress as a nurd as I usually do when visiting a new venue and suggest we all do the same. Pens in the outside top pocket, beige trousers or grey trousers, tweed tie, Hush Puppies, etc. Come on Lou where and when?
    What, you mean that's not the way you're supposed to dress for a dance?

    Yeah, sounds good to me, a Foumite Geek Outing (FGO - it's an essential component of such things to have a good TLA)

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