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Thread: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

  1. #1
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    A few posts made by resident pedants Stewart38 and ESG have raised the issue as to 'Eliteism'. There seems to be an increasing assumption made that the better dancres see themselves as being BETTER than the common masses. PaulF felt it neccesary to apologise for wanting to dance with better dancers.

    Can we have a nice (some hope) discussion about what we mean by these phrases and why these perceptions occur?

    My personal view is that;
    • Its rarely the A list dancers who act like Hotshots
    • We should applaud those who have made the effort to develop their dancing to the highest levels
    • We shoud try to learn from the better dancers, not bemoan them
    • Accept that good dancers deserve the opportunity to dance with similar and better dancres without being classes as Elitest

    We all have dnace places, music and dancers that we feel more comfortable with. We should be allowed to enjoy that without being named called as long as respect is given to dancers and events that might not hit the mark. Fair comment?

  2. #2
    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Good thread.
    I was going to post something along similar lines but couldnt word the question well enough.
    It comes down to my fascination as to what people think when they use the term 'Elitist'


    Heres a definition form Cambridge press:

    'elitism'
    -noun [U] MAINLY DISAPPROVING
    -when things are organized for the benefit of a few people with special interests or abilities:
    Last edited by Paul F; 1st-December-2005 at 02:26 PM.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Accept that good dancers deserve the opportunity to dance with similar and better dancres without being classes as Elitest
    If you're happy with the way you feel about dancing with "the common masses" - or even if you're just happy using that phrase - who on earth cares if someone gives you some label?

    Why are you letting the way someone else feels about you become *your* problem?

  4. #4
    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    If you're happy with the way you feel about dancing with "the common masses" - or even if you're just happy using that phrase - who on earth cares if someone gives you some label?

    Why are you letting the way someone else feels about you become *your* problem?
    I dont think its quite that easy.
    How we perceive ourselves and how the world perceives us are two differing concepts but, to a lot of people, they are just as important.
    Even though some people may not admit it, the way society operates forces us into caring about how we are seen by others.

  5. #5
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Can we have a nice (some hope) discussion about what we mean by these phrases and why these perceptions occur?
    Let's hope so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    [*]Its rarely the A list dancers who act like Hotshots

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    [*]We should applaud those who have made the effort to develop their dancing to the highest levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    [*]We shoud try to learn from the better dancers, not bemoan them
    but, at the same time, they should be willing to teach, and to help those not as good by dancing with everyone too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    [*]Accept that good dancers deserve the opportunity to dance with similar and better dancres without being classes as Elitest
    Where would Wimbledon be if the likes of Tim Henman, and all those before him (and all the other world class tennis players) had be berated for mainly wanting to play tennis with those of equal standard (that does not mean an equal as a person, those not of equal standard at tennis, may well be better dancers, I can't hit a ball to save my life!)[/LIST]
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    We all have dance places, music and dancers that we feel more comfortable with. We should be allowed to enjoy that without being named called as long as respect is given to dancers and events that might not hit the mark. Fair comment?
    Some of my favourite dancers aren't even that great, I just have alot of fun dancing with them!


    Well done Gus for saying exactly what (I think) everybody is thinking, without saying anything that could be taken offensively!

    TT.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    A few posts made by resident pedants Stewart38 and ESG
    I've spent ages trying to get known as an official pedant, I insist on being included in that list.

    Other than that, I can't find anything offensive to disagree with in your post - and, of course, I tried very hard.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    I dont think its quite that easy.
    How we perceive ourselves and how the world perceives us are two differing concepts but, to a lot of people, they are just as important.
    Even though some people may not admit it, the way society operates forces us into caring about how we are seen by others.
    I don't think it's fair to control how other people see us.

    Repeating "I'm not a hotshot, I'm not elitist" till you're blue in the face isn't going to change how other people interpret what you (anyone) have written on the Forum. If you've expressed preferences about who you prefer to dance with, and why you prefer some music over other - they you have to accept people's right to form their own opinion of you on that basis.

    Furthermore, it's quite demeaning to someone to contradict an opinion that they've come to (in this case an opinion about you - anyone).

    You (anyone) hear(s) this: "You're a hotshot/elitist" and you reply "no, I'm not".

    The other person's experience of the same exchange is quite, quite different: "I feel that you are a hotshot/elitist because you make me feel bad about myself", is what they are actually saying - and your reply comes back as "Your feelings are INVALID, and you should feel about me the way *I* tell you to".

    You can't tell anyone what to think of you, and it's pointless trying.

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    Registered User KatieR's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    blah blah .....Repeating "I'm not a hotshot, I'm not elitist" till you're blue in the face isn't going to change how other people interpret what you ..... blah blah blah
    Why say it then? Comes back to the whole live and let live argument... if you didn't suggest that people were hotshots/elitists/ferns we wouldn't have to defend ourselves would we.

  9. #9
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    You know, its funny, when I first started dancing there were a number of really good dancers around who now would be (or even are) called hotshots or elitist by a number of people on this forum.

    These people always had time to dance with me, the beginner, but still preferred dancing with people of the same standard, and we didn't have the added benfit of taxi dancers then, so we relied on these people.

    I personally used to watch them and think "Wow, they're fab, I wish I could dance like that, I'll never be that good" (I still don't think I am as good as alot of them). I never once looked at them and thought "hotshot, elitist" or any other derogatory term. I never once berated them for preferring to dance with the other good dancers than with me, and I always felt so happy when they danced with me, without getting any sense of feeling "grateful", or made to feel like I should. I completely understood why they would want to dance with the other good dancers, and was glad they still made time for me.

    So, who are the people who really deserve to be slated:
    • the ones who openly say "I prefer dancing with good dancers" but still enjoy dancing with everyone, and are willing to do so, so long as they get a fair enough share of dances with the ones that make them feel good about their own dancing[/*]

      or
    • those who stand back and brand them as "hotshot/elitist" and other derogatory terms, simply for wanting to get some payback for their hard-earned abilities?[/*]


    Perhaps the ones getting branded as such should stop dancing with the ones who say it, afterall, why should anyone be nice to someone who will be slagging them off in public the next day?

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    So, who are the people who really deserve to be slated:
    Perhaps, no-one?

  11. #11
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by KatieR
    Why say it then? Comes back to the whole live and let live argument... if you didn't suggest that people were hotshots/elitists/ferns we wouldn't have to defend ourselves would we.

  12. #12
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Perhaps, no-one?
    The difference being that, the ones being branded as hotshot/elitist, are the ones who have done nothing to deserve being slated.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    You (anyone) hear(s) this: "You're a hotshot/elitist" and you reply "no, I'm not".

    The other person's experience of the same exchange is quite, quite different: "I feel that you are a hotshot/elitist because you make me feel bad about myself", is what they are actually saying - and your reply comes back as "Your feelings are INVALID, and you should feel about me the way *I* tell you to".

    You can't tell anyone what to think of you, and it's pointless trying.
    I guess the clear problem is one of the difference between perception and actual reality.

    For example, if I were ever rash enough to say "XXX was rude", then that means to me that "My perception of XXX's behaviour was rude", in that I didn't think XXX was considerate. XXX may indeed have different (and from their POV, equally valid) interpretations.

    All of these labels (hotshot, elitist, rude, cliquey - hell, even pedantic) are perceptual. They relate to how a person or group is perceived by another person or group.

    And of course, the person or group being targeted will almost never see themselves in that particular light. For example, as I believe DavidB said (sort of) recently, "No-one inside a clique can see that clique".

    So any accusation of clique-hood, hotshotism or other aspects will automatically be rejected due to the differences in perception. The accuser will always think they're right, and the accused will think they are right. And from an external perspective, they both are right.

    ESG, that's interesting - and that's the first time I've had to engage my brain all day. Well done, you deserve rep-kinghood (today...).

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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    When Oliver Koch was talking to me about AT in the summer he frequently said things like "I leant this by watching the better dancers ......". Oliver has been dancing AT for 12 years, he went back to university to study dance teaching, before that he was a professional stage dancer for about 10 years. He's a truly excellent dancer and teacher and yet he doesn't consider himself one of the "better dancers".

    Perceptions are relative. Someone who has only been dancing MJ for a few months will probably consider me to be one of the "better dancers". In my opinion I'm nothing of the sort - I'm not bad compared to the entire MJ population but when I watch the floor at a national event I'm learning from and being enthralled by the "better dancers".

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG
    Furthermore, it's quite demeaning to someone to contradict an opinion that they've come to (in this case an opinion about you - anyone).
    I don't agree. If someone decides that I'm a "hotshot" simply because they perceive that I can lead, consider "movement" more important than "moves", have a passion for learning about dance and like dancing to music more challenging than "Call On Me" then that is their problem. If they express that opinion to me, or publicly about me, then it is they that are being demeaning and I will contradict them.

    For the most part, it's the people who express these opinions that are being elitist. They are creating an elite that they can criticise because it makes them feel less bad about the shortcomings they perceive in themselves. Frankly, it's about time they grew up.

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    Registered User Feelingpink's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Hey, TT, you agree with Gus saying "We should try to learn from the better dancers, not bemoan them", adding "but, at the same time, they should be willing to teach, and to help those not as good by dancing with everyone too."

    You then agree with Gus's statement that we "Accept that good dancers deserve the opportunity to dance with similar and better dancers without being classed as Elitest".

    I don't see how these two statements fit together. On the one hand you are saying that good dancers have an obligation to dance with those are aren't as good, AND that they deserve the opportunity to dance with those who are similar or better. Perhaps you could explain further or I've misunderstood what you meant.

    Personally, I don't believe everyone SHOULD HAVE TO BE willing to teach others. Many of us make the decision to do so, but I object to it being thought of as obligatory.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by JonD
    music more challenging than "Call On Me"
    Inconceivable!

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by JonD
    For the most part, it's the people who express these opinions that are being elitist. They are creating an elite that they can criticise because it makes them feel less bad about the shortcomings they perceive in themselves. Frankly, it's about time they grew up.
    So the best way you're going to deal with someone's negative opinion about you (anyone) is to create for yourself an *even* more negative opinion of them?

    And TT wonders why this kind of thing leads to arguments....

    EDIT: ...and to wars...

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    A few posts made by resident pedants Stewart38 and ESG have raised the issue as to 'Eliteism'.
    I was actually referring to comments made on the forum

    Hot shot someone who wants to dance with better dancers NO

    Hot shot some one who turns their nose up at dance with me YES

    next ..............

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    I think people were being "slated" for giving the impression that at their favourite venues, while a few keen beginners may be tolerated, they shouldn't be encouraged to come, as that would first, dilute the pool of "better" dancers, and second, potentially force a change in the music policy.

    My own impression is that this has a tinge of elitism, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Paul F's supplied definition of elitism covers it well... "when things are organized for the benefit of a few people with special interests or abilities."

    We need special places for special people.

    If it went as far as restricting people from attending due to their lack of ability, I think that's going too far. But I don't think that's likely...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Are 'Better' dancers an 'Elite'

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    If it went as far as restricting people from attending due to their lack of ability, I think that's going too far. But I don't think that's likely...

    Im just wondering should people be 'allowed' to post on this Thread unless they have been dancing for say 8 years ??

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