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Thread: Why do we teach the Catapult?

  1. #21
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    If the question is "Why teach the catapult at all?" - well, why teach any move? It's fun, it's got a lot of interesting components which can be split down and used separately, it has a lot of variations, etc.
    What have you got against the catapult then, Gus? What's it ever done to you? Obviously, from this thread, some people really like it.

    I'd say, why teach the side to side, it looks horrible, it feels horrible, it adds nothing to the dance, it teaches no basic that is useful in any other move, and who ever does it in freestyle!?

  2. #22
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Given that the beginner moves are taught as the foundation for more advanced moves, why do we teach the catapult? I was thinking the move through the other day, in particular the spin out. I can't think of another move where you would draw the famous "horizontal semi circle at waist level letting go" .... nor where you would use the ladies outside hand to pull across her body to do a non-assisted spin. Can anybody come up with a move/combo that the catapult spin supports? I always feel we should teach the guys the variation where they swop hands to use the ladies right arm.
    Its good as it teaches or put an emphasis on 'tension' bewteen the partners as you learn forward

  3. #23
    Registered User KatieR's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    What have you got against the catapult then, Gus? What's it ever done to you? Obviously, from this thread, some people really like it.

    I'd say, why teach the side to side, it looks horrible, it feels horrible, it adds nothing to the dance, it teaches no basic that is useful in any other move, and who ever does it in freestyle!?
    Once again, I feel you have missed Gus' point. IMO he isn't having a go at the catapult, just asking about the move. What kind of a forum is this when you cant even ask a simple question without someone attacking your motives.

    It is just YOUR opinion regarding the catapult. Why do you feel that needs to be the general consensus? Im all for having an opinion, but no wonder some of the long term forumites have started to disappear from the pages, I myself have not been posting as much because I feel that you can't say anything without being senselessly attacked for it.

    I personally quite like the catapult and I have it done on me quite often during a freestyle. Liking to spin I find it a great one to introduce spinning into a dance. Another good one is the ladyspin (Ceroc Spin)

    I think Gus, regarding:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    The key point I was making was the spin at the end .....and the lady is potentialy being pulled away form her centre of gravity.
    it really does depend on how the move is lead. There are certain guys who I do the catapult with and it is one of the only moves (the ladyspin being the other) that I can on the rare occassion nail a triple free spin. I feel the balance is right, the position is right and the guy can get good momentum happening to spin the lady.

    however, the guy needs to keep his hand at waist level and try not to actually move his position on the floor which can cause the lady to be pulled off balance.

    Being a right footed spinner, I find this move really comfortable to spin. But as it is a left handed move for the guy, I can see how it might not always be the most comfortable move for them.

  4. #24
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by KatieR
    Once again, I feel you have missed Gus' point. IMO he isn't having a go at the catapult, just asking about the move. What kind of a forum is this when you cant even ask a simple question without someone attacking your motives.

    It is just YOUR opinion regarding the catapult. Why do you feel that needs to be the general consensus? Im all for having an opinion, but no wonder some of the long term forumites have started to disappear from the pages, I myself have not been posting as much because I feel that you can't say anything without being senselessly attacked for it.
    What a load of old f*** B*****

    Seriously this is a good point, i didnt read anywhere in Gus post where he suggested it shoud be banned and only be allowed on Devil worship days

  5. #25
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by KatieR
    I myself have not been posting as much because I feel that you can't say anything without being senselessly attacked for it.
    Straying OT for a moment

    Regarding my posts. If anyone reads something from me that seems disrespectful, please assume that it isn't and that it's just a limitation of my ability to express myself through the medium of text. PM me back or post a reply and I'll try and express whatever my point was more clearly.

    Take care,
    Christopher

  6. #26
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    Regarding my posts. If anyone reads something from me that seems disrespectful, please assume that it isn't ...
    Well, regarding my posts... If anyone reads something from me that seems disrespectful, I hope that it is sufficiently atypical of my usual posts for you to understand that it must have been wholeheartedly meant.

    Just kidding.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  7. #27
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by KatieR
    Once again, I feel you have missed Gus' point. IMO he isn't having a go at the catapult, just asking about the move. What kind of a forum is this when you cant even ask a simple question without someone attacking your motives.

    It is just YOUR opinion regarding the catapult. Why do you feel that needs to be the general consensus? Im all for having an opinion, but no wonder some of the long term forumites have started to disappear from the pages, I myself have not been posting as much because I feel that you can't say anything without being senselessly attacked for it.

    I personally quite like the catapult and I have it done on me quite often during a freestyle. Liking to spin I find it a great one to introduce spinning into a dance. Another good one is the ladyspin (Ceroc Spin)

    I think Gus, regarding:


    it really does depend on how the move is lead. There are certain guys who I do the catapult with and it is one of the only moves (the ladyspin being the other) that I can on the rare occassion nail a triple free spin. I feel the balance is right, the position is right and the guy can get good momentum happening to spin the lady.

    however, the guy needs to keep his hand at waist level and try not to actually move his position on the floor which can cause the lady to be pulled off balance.

    Being a right footed spinner, I find this move really comfortable to spin. But as it is a left handed move for the guy, I can see how it might not always be the most comfortable move for them.
    God! Some people really need to lighten up! Why can't someone ask a simple, tongue in cheek question ("What has the catapult ever done to you?" I thought sounded very obviously tongue in cheek, I mean, its a dance move, it can't "do" anything to you!).

    The reason I asked (in a light-hearted fashion) what it was Gus had about the move is that, he has asked the question "Why do we teach the catapult?", alot of people have now given very constructive answers to his question about why it is taught, it would now be interesting to know why the question was asked in the first place, and why specifically about the catapult, that's all? Debates generally have at least 2 sides, not just 1 question posed, lots of answers, then no feedback, it would be interesting to know why the question was posed, that's all!

    Seems to me you can't say anything in a tongue in cheek fashion, without being senselessly attacked!
    Last edited by TiggsTours; 21st-November-2005 at 03:20 PM.

  8. #28
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    If anyone reads something from me that seems disrespectful, please assume that it isn't
    If anyone reads something from me that seems disrespectful, assume it is

    Slightly more seriously, open forums (fora?) and discussion groups always have heated attacks and defenses. This Forum is one of the nicest I've ever seen, so that may put things into perspective.

    I think the fact that a lot of people know other forumites in real life tends to keep things fairly moderate, and of course when it doesn't, that's why we have moderators

  9. #29
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    I think the point Gus is making is that spinning her by the left hand is somewhat unnatural - if I just think about a woman coming round that side and being spun, I would have a strong preference for using her right hand.
    I hear what you're saying, and certainly lots of women find it easier to follow their right hands.
    On the other hand, a follower should in theory be leadable from both hands, and I think it's reasonable to start that learning process at beginner level, with moves like the catapult.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    If the woman is moving in a certain direction, a natural way to turn her is to provide a "brake" on one side. In the catapult, you do the opposite and "accelerate" the far side, which is trickier.
    Trickier, and worth learning, I reckon.

  10. #30
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    What a load of old f*** B*****

    Seriously this is a good point, i didnt read anywhere in Gus post where he suggested it shoud be banned and only be allowed on Devil worship days
    Isn't every day on the forum "Devil Worship Day"?

    Of course it is. Dance itself is the work of Satan and dancers are the Devil's Diciples*

    *I'm only an Evil Imp but I'm hoping for promotion to Smurf (2nd class)

  11. #31
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    I hear what you're saying, and certainly lots of women find it easier to follow their right hands.
    On the other hand, a follower should in theory be leadable from both hands, and I think it's reasonable to start that learning process at beginner level, with moves like the catapult.
    Meh. It's only the fact that I'm using my left hand that reminds me that I'm a man. Don't try to confuse me more!

    Yup. It's a tricky spin for a beginner follower. But I don't think it's because it's her left hand. We do use our left hands in the side-to-side too, and despite it being a naff move (I agree with TT there!), no one suggests that's too hard for a beginner. And besides which, as a beginner, our guinea-pig theoretical Follower hasn't yet grown accustomed to using her right hand in the main. And the Wurlitzer, whilst technically no longer a Ceroc™ Beginner's move (though it remains so in some other organisations and independent clubs ) also requires a certain amount of leading on the Lady's left hand.

    I agree with DavidF, it's that unusual lead! I'd not thought how much tricker it actually is for the leader. And I should have realised, as it did cause difficulties with a couple of chaps in a consolidation class I took last week. So, sorry I missed your point, Gus! It's a good one!

  12. #32
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Dance itself is the work of Satan and dancers are the Devil's Diciples*
    I refer you to the film Footloose which puts forward a wonderful defense of how good dancing is.

    And I apologise to Gus for apparrently derailing a perfectly good thread (mixed metaphor?)

    Come on people answer the man's question
    "Can anybody come up with a move/combo that the catapult spin (The key point I was making was the spin at the end) supports?"
    other than
    Catapul gather-up thingy:
    Wurlizer dummy-thingy move:
    Repeating catapult.
    Most of the "here's my back" moves,
    'Flamenco Walks' (kinda circular walks around each other).
    mirrored sway back
    mirrored Hanger
    a slam stop

    Take care,
    Christopher

  13. #33
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    We do use our left hands in the side-to-side too
    Well, not in the normal side-to-side that beginners get taught.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    despite it being a naff move
    Don't think you're getting out of it that easily!

  14. #34
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Learned an interesting variant at Lindy (the True Dance as opposed to Mr McGs Work Of Satan) class last night - first 6 beat shape is a slotted catapult entry (man gets out of the way rather than forcing the lady to do the walkaround under the arm). At the end of that the lady is behind the man right to right. The next 6 beat shape is where it got interesting after the rock step on the first triple the man pulls in his right arm across his back (puts himself into a half nelson), on the next triple he leads the lady into an american spin (nifty flick of the wrist needed) and turns anti clockwise to meet her taking whichever hand is needed. Anyone seen an MJ move like it?

  15. #35
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Well, not in the normal side-to-side that beginners get taught.
    Don't you change places in a Ceroc™ Side-to-Side, then? Or have they simplified it for you & turned it into just a half Side-to-Side (Maybe renamed to a Side-t?)

    Don't think you're getting out of it that easily!
    No. I've just decided to stop dancing at Worcester. That'll get me out of it.

  16. #36
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    Don't you change places in a Ceroc™ Side-to-Side, then?
    It's just the one way round in Ceroctm.

  17. #37
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    It's just the one way round in Ceroctm.
    Wouldn't you prefer it longer?

  18. #38
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Of all the Ceroc moves I know, the 'side-t' on one side, followed by an 'o-side' on the other is the one most prone to the follower doing something unexpected. I imagine followers believe that no move could be that simple and so try to complicate it. Or maybe it's just me.

    Back on topic - Viktor teaches a catapult straight into womans Half-Nelson which feels great (as a lead ), but wouldn't work if the follower didn't think they were about to do a spin. I rest my case M'lud.

  19. #39
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove
    Back on topic - Viktor teaches a catapult straight into womans Half-Nelson which feels great (as a lead ), but wouldn't work if the follower didn't think they were about to do a spin. I rest my case M'lud.
    Just to clarify - is a half nelson where the ladies hand is behind her head or behind her back (just above hips)?

    The first is correct in wrestling, but I've noticed a lot of teachers use the second meaning. They further confuse things by referring to a hammerlock as being when the lady's hand is behind her head, when in fact it's when it's behind her back

    Thanks
    Christopher

  20. #40
    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    Just to clarify - is a half nelson where the ladies hand is behind her head or behind her back (just above hips)?
    Usually a half Nelson is behind the lady's back (same as a hammerlock).
    Plus the half nelson is also a move http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/lat...lf_nelson.html

    SpinDr.

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