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Thread: Why do we teach the Catapult?

  1. #81
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M
    BTW LMC, for a diamond wouldn't it be left & forward - right & forward - right & back - left & back?
    Sorry, can't edit the above now.

    But thinking about this, I'm now officially confused

    I think it actually goes:

    Step left as you bring follower underneath your arm
    Step forward and right and lean, offer LH
    Step right and back as you bring follower into your left side
    Step back and left as you bring follower round to the front for the spin
    (Probably, depending on follower's travel!) Step forward and right to collect follower for return

    All that sounds hideously complicated for a beginner lead - as I am. I think I'll stick with my original version, even if it isn't actually technically 100% correct. But thanks for making me think about it

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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M
    bigdjiver, if you paid more attention to RK's signature, you'd realise he's an expert on the construction of medieval siege engines.

    Though when it comes to implementation he's not so hot...
    I have signatures (and avatars) disabled.

    There are many sites on the web that have have the trebuchet as a form of catapult, and I am presently content with this usage. There are discrepancies in the definition of catapult, and of catapulta. I intend to go back to the Scientific American article of 1995 and to a Latin dictionary in the library see if those alter my opinion.

    In view of my newly acquired knowledge perhaps the catapult should be called the "staff-sling", because, viewed from above, that is what the action resembles.

  3. #83
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    But thinking about this, I'm now officially confused

    I think it actually goes:

    Step left as you bring follower underneath your arm
    Step forward and right and lean, offer LH
    Step right and back as you bring follower into your left side
    Step back and left as you bring follower round to the front for the spin
    (Probably, depending on follower's travel!) Step forward and right to collect follower for return

    All that sounds hideously complicated for a beginner lead - as I am. I think I'll stick with my original version, even if it isn't actually technically 100% correct. But thanks for making me think about it
    I was always taught to step left and forward as I brought the follower under my right arm. Simply stepping left at the start sounds like a recipe for yanking the follower around. In most beginner moves the lead is taught to step in (following the initial step back which represents the end, typically, of the previous move): why should the catapult be any different?

    The point about complication is true though: it's probably the most elaborate beginner's move. But I think for beginners it's good to have something more elaborate in there to achieve, particularly the lead. A good confidence-builder (though maybe there's a debate here about early 'elaborate' moves tempting beginner leads towards the 'Dark Side', and thinking too much about becoming move libraries).

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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M
    I was always taught to step left and forward as I brought the follower under my right arm. Simply stepping left at the start sounds like a recipe for yanking the follower around. In most beginner moves the lead is taught to step in (following the initial step back which represents the end, typically, of the previous move): why should the catapult be any different?

    The point about complication is true though: it's probably the most elaborate beginner's move. But I think for beginners it's good to have something more elaborate in there to achieve, particularly the lead. A good confidence-builder (though maybe there's a debate here about early 'elaborate' moves tempting beginner leads towards the 'Dark Side', and thinking too much about becoming move libraries).
    Instead of stepping forward with the left, it works better if step across your right leg with your left. If you leave your left arm were it was and chest facing forward you create tension in the wing bone area for the lead.

    Also the cross step creates the path for the girl to travel forward because you're slightly off centre.

    Now to lead the girl into the catapult simply release the tension in the wing bone by transferring your weight from the left leg to the right leg.

    You will find that this action is enuf to draw your left arm forward - hence leading the girl into the movement

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M
    The point about complication is true though: it's probably the most elaborate beginner's move.
    I would have thought the Pretzel qualified for that "honour".

  6. #86
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    I can lead a pretzel without having ever been taught it in a beginners class yet. I couldn't have done that with a catapault.

    (Stuart) Yes, I probably do step forwards & left slightly on the second beat... have never tried the cross-step DF, makes sense.

    Apologies in advance to any follower I dance with tonight who gets 20 catapaults in one track while I work all this out

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    I would have thought the Pretzel qualified for that "honour".
    Well the pretzel isn't a Ceroc beginners' move, but as a beginner I was shown it by a fellow dancer and found it pretty easy.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    IIRC the pretzel and the wurlitzer used to be beginners' moves and are now back in the official list of beginners' moves? Makes sense IMO. Think there was another one re-instated as well.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    IIRC the pretzel and the wurlitzer used to be beginners' moves and are now back in the official list of beginners' moves? Makes sense IMO. Think there was another one re-instated as well.
    Not in this part of the world. At least, not yet...

    But I think some of the other ex-beginners' moves are the sway, the half-windmill, and the hatchback.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    Apologies in advance to any follower I dance with tonight who gets 20 catapaults in one track while I work all this out
    Oh God! Ok then if you have to practice I'll help you out.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    But I think some of the other ex-beginners' moves are the sway, the half-windmill, and the hatchback.
    Eek - with the exception of the sway, I think I hate all beginner moves... Am I a snob? Is there a definitive list somewhere?

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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Eek - with the exception of the sway, I think I hate all beginner moves... Am I a snob? Is there a definitive list somewhere?
    There are lists somewhere on the forums of what were beginner moves at least six months ago. What are ex-beginners' moves is harder to decide, especially if you don't know how far back you want to go.

    I was taught the Hatchback once before it was removed from the list. I've got the Ceroc beginner's DVD of last year that teaches the Half-Windmill, and I remember someone saying that the Sway used to be a beginners' move.

    I'm not a fan of the half-windmill, mainly because I can't do it, but the other two are well established in my repertoire, though maybe not exactly as they get taught...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    I can lead a pretzel without having ever been taught it in a beginners class yet. I couldn't have done that with a catapault.
    Fair point, but I do get the impression that the pretzel is harder to teach than the catapult, if not to learn.

  14. #94
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    The pretzel is one of those "Is that it?" moves - like the Octopus - sounds like a MESS when you try to describe it and feels dreadful when done slowly, but flows nicely in freestyle.

    Pretzels are popular - they must be easy

    *ducks and runs*

    Seriously, some intermediate moves are of the type where as a follower, I TOTALLY lose interest, because they are of the type which are highly unlikely to be used in freestyle - anything with footwork more complicated than a Manhattan for a start.

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    The pretzel is one of those "Is that it?" moves - like the Octopus - sounds like a MESS when you try to describe it and feels dreadful when done slowly, but flows nicely in freestyle.

    Pretzels are popular - they must be easy

    *ducks and runs*
    I always think the pretzel looks dreadfully uncomfortable for leader and follower when watching from the sides which means I very rarely try to lead one in freestyle (other than a 'false' one, of course - I love cheese ) For me and, I think for many beginners/new intermediates the pretzel (standard/double/continuous) is one you want in your armoury because it looks quite difficult to pull off and probably quite impressive to someone who does not dance. Further down the line I came to the conclusion that, for me, it wasn't an enjoyable move to lead or to have to follow. Have others reached the same conclusion?

    Robert

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    It seems to me that the main problem with a pretzel (or any double-handed back-to-back move, like the scissors in intermediate class yesterday) is the lead not dropping their hand low enough before bringing the follower round/through - keeping the hand too high does lead to yanking, however relaxed the follower's arm is.

    A single pretzel is OK if not rushed, but I can live without them and certainly don't appreciate being tied in knots by some a*se trying to show how clever he is, especially since such leads tend not to move their feet

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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC

    A single pretzel is OK if not rushed, but I can live without them and certainly don't appreciate being tied in knots by some a*se trying to show how clever he is, especially since such leads tend not to move their feet
    For the pretzel? Or generally? Or both?

    A teacher whose classes I attend regularly stresses, when teaching the pretzel, that it is easier to lead if the man does not move his feet and just allows the lady to move around him. I would tend to agree with this for the pretzel but then, as I stated earlier, it's not a move I enjoy so it's irrelevant. This is (another) big advantage for the leaders over followers in MJ - don't like a move then just drop it but if you're a follower you have to pretty much put up with what you're given.

    Robert

  18. #98
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Not very clear there - for a single pretzel, agree, it's easier if the lead stays put. But if they are trying to wind their follower round in knots then it might help us keep up if the lead takes a step in the appropriate direction occasionally (preferably in the direction that takes them out of our way).

    As for having to put up with whatever moves the lead decides - well, that's the penalty we pay for experience of more moves than leaders, as we dance with different leads. Leads are restricted to their repertoire. And we can always sabotage

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we teach the Catapult?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd
    Have others reached the same conclusion?
    I haven't lead a pretzel in ages, but I've no idea why, as I quite like them.

    I guess they just never seem appropriate at the time. Don't know if that's due to a failing or a feature in my style or what.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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