Are you comfortable dancing drops with

[jivecat]

I do encounter problems when the lady puts her hand down tho, although this is very understandable, if i am in the middle of a seducer and sudenly the lady stops (cos her hand is on the floor) and i don't it can cause me to loose my balance - must also hurt her wrist

I don't think I do it with enough force to block the move, but I'll bear it in mind.

I have always tried to emphasise safety & style points in ddips drops & seducers whenever I teach them, I would have thought all teachers of these moves do the same. as these two points are more immportamt than the actual move - a simple dip executed with style & musicacity is far far better than a flash move executed in a clumsy and unsafe way IMO

Yes, it's true, you do. But what happens if the paying customers in the workshop have not reached a basic standard of knowledge and technique sufficient to enable them to carry out the drops safely and successfully regardless of advice given? I was on a workshop where some of the leaders probably could not carry out beginner moves with safety, style and musicality, let alone a lean/dip, let alone a complex and risky drop like the one where the man steps across the lady as he turns her over, which was taught on that particular occasion. (Obviously I don't know about the followers as I wasn't subjected to them.)

Do you
a. Carry on with the class regardless.
b. Teach the simplest possible moves and annoy the percentage that want, and are ready, for more advanced moves.
c. Vet people before they enrol on the course.
d. Ask them to leave the class and refund their money.

Mostly as - you'll soon be dialling 999.
Mostly bs,cs or ds - you'll soon be out of business


LL

ps
I do not ask cos I have often got the reply "well I was in your workshop/class. don't you remember me!!!
Peter

[MartinHarper]

let alone a complex and risky drop like the one where the man steps across the lady as he turns her over, which was taught on that particular occasion.

I can see it would be a disaster to have guys and gals being taught more complex drops when they have yet to master technique for simpler ones.
Do you feel there is the same problem with guys and gals being taught simple drops before they are ready? If so, what sort of things are important to learn from upright dancing before learning simple drops?
(open question)

[spindr]

If so, what sort of things are important to learn from upright dancing before learning simple drops?
(open question)

Floor craft. Balance. Frame. "Holding back in the follow"

SpinDr.

[jivecat]

I can see it would be a disaster to have guys and gals being taught more complex drops when they have yet to master technique for simpler ones.
Do you feel there is the same problem with guys and gals being taught simple drops before they are ready? If so, what sort of things are important to learn from upright dancing before learning simple drops?
(open question)

I'm too tired to think about it properly but I'm thinking about general timing, lead and follow, balance. If these are absent in upright dancing (!?) the dance is just a bit uncomfortable and not very enjoyable, if they're absent in dips/drops it's frightening and dangerous. Yes I do think there's a problem with simple drops before they are ready - correct timing of basic moves would be a minimum requirement, is that too much to expect?

On the occasion I'm thinking about there were people trying to learn drops without the pre-requisite skills. It caused several ladies to grab fixed partners for the rest of the workshop and a few others to get pretty grumpy.

[LMC]

Floor craft. Balance. Frame. "Holding back in the follow"

SpinDr.

And for the lead... hmmm, this is really difficult to explain. But even only 6 months in I have a fairly good chance of assessing whether I can be confident in doing dips/seducers/drops with a lead - to the extent that I get upset with myself when I misjudge rather than with them. As well as the obvious - clear, smooth, firm without being excessively forceful, I think what I am 'looking' for in a lead is a sense that the lead knows when to stop - related to tension/frame. Of course, we are holding most of our own weight - or should be - but for leans/lower seducers/drops I need to know that there is some support for my balance and that the guy is not going to collapse under me. Some intermediate lessons are really irritating like this - the teacher (correctly) emphasises the need for followers to take their own weight, but fails to remind the guys that they will be taking *some* weight.

On top of that, I need a sense that the lead is 'controlled' - there is nothing worse than being 'dropped' too quickly - followers need more 'core' tension for some drops than for upright moves and I need at least a split second to 'tense' my abdominal area to take the weight. Or maybe I just need to get fitter?

Dunno if any of that makes sense to anyone else!

[Bop]

I had my first really bad experience of this last Saturday.

After five years of dancing, with regular dips and drops, for the first time ever, I stopped dancing and left the dance floor part way through the track. We left shortly after.

A certain gentleman tried to drop me and when I said no, because it was painful, he pushed me down further. My back is still sore (but I'm hoping it will be OK for this weekend's BFG ad Southport in a few weeks). He hadn't asked and as it was early in the evening, hadn't even seen me do them with someone else to know I even do drops.

I won't name the venue, but when I spoke to the manager on the way out, the comment I received was "What do you expect, I often get dropped without being asked". Personally if the venue manager has that attitude I am very uncomfortable about dancing there. I doubt we'll be going back.

I do usually only do dips and drops with either Mr Bop or other regular partners I know and feel comfortable with. I'l be sticking rigidly to that rule from now on.

Bop

[Andreas]

Who, on a public poll is going to answer "someone I don’t know, without asking"?

I did and I wasn't the only one

Different countries, different rites. Also there drops and there are DROPS. I don't think putting it black and white is possible.

[Lory]

A certain gentleman tried to drop me and when I said no, because it was painful, he pushed me down further.

That's absolutely terrible. Imagine if you'd just come back to dancing after recovering from a back operation or something like that.

I've had occasions where men have repeatedly tried to do drops on me and i've had to point out that it's far too dangerous, as it's too crowded, or that I simply don't like doing them and they've argued with me, saying 'don't worry, you'll be fine with ME'

A dance is supposed to be fun, not scarey!

[jivecat]

...... they've argued with me, saying 'don't worry, you'll be fine with ME'

Yeah, isn't it funny that they're always the ones with appalling technique that manhandle you into some horribly precarious and graceless position, usually exiting into an off-balance shoulder spin. Why do some people possess confidence in inverse proportion to their abilities? One of life's eternal mysteries.

[Freya]

Also if my knee is bent at more than about 90 degrees I can't effectively use my leg muscles to lift my body up. This is either due to the laws of physics, leverage & all that, or it may just be my age, not sure.

Hi I know this is a bit of a late response but the once the Knee bends to beyond 90 degrees the quadriceps muscles find it increasingly dificult to fire and therefore straighten the knee joint! It is possible to increase the strength of the muscles and make it easier to do so but it is all a case of physics I'm afraid! Nothing to do with Age!!!!

After five years of dancing, with regular dips and drops, for the first time ever, I stopped dancing and left the dance floor part way through the track. We left shortly after.

A certain gentleman tried to drop me and when I said no, because it was painful, he pushed me down further. My back is still sore (but I'm hoping it will be OK for this weekend's BFG ad Southport in a few weeks). He hadn't asked and as it was early in the evening, hadn't even seen me do them with someone else to know I even do drops.

Ouch this doesn't sound good! No means No in my book and though quite happy to do dips and drops I liked to be given the qption and don't do them unles I think the Lead can lead them proplerly! I would hate to be forced into a Drop after saying No!

they've argued with me, saying 'don't worry, you'll be fine with ME'

This for some reason has the opposite effect to the one intended!!!! Why is this???

[Donna]

I don't mind anybody doing dips and drops with me so long as they ask first. Usually I ask them if they have covered any in a workshop first.. if not, then I tell them not to in case something goes wrong. At least I'm being honest with them and he want takes it personally then it's his problem. There is no point in being afraid to tell somebody not to carry out any dips and drops if the chances of them causing an accident is high, causing a severe injury not just to the lady but himself. If he was trying to then force me into a drop after me telling him not too... straight off to the venue manager I go! At least then he'll be warned about it and shouldn't put anybody else at risk.

[Almost an Angel]

I had my first really bad experience of this last Saturday.

After five years of dancing, with regular dips and drops, for the first time ever, I stopped dancing and left the dance floor part way through the track. We left shortly after.

A certain gentleman tried to drop me and when I said no, because it was painful, he pushed me down further. My back is still sore (but I'm hoping it will be OK for this weekend's BFG ad Southport in a few weeks). He hadn't asked and as it was early in the evening, hadn't even seen me do them with someone else to know I even do drops.

That's really Bad!!
Why oh why do certain men feel the need to do this!!!!

I've had occasions where men have repeatedly tried to do drops on me and i've had to point out that it's far too dangerous, as it's too crowded, or that I simply don't like doing them and they've argued with me, saying 'don't worry, you'll be fine with ME'

And you're supposed to trust them after they say that! That normally has the red flags flying in my book.

I
I won't name the venue, but when I spoke to the manager on the way out, the comment I received was "What do you expect, I often get dropped without being asked". Personally if the venue manager has that attitude I am very uncomfortable about dancing there. I doubt we'll be going back.

That's really bad - the venue should make a point of reminding leads upon a regular basis that not all women are comfortable or able to do drops, you should always ask (unless you know or are familar with the persons abilities) - it's only polite.

I think it kinda goes like this:
Man
"Oh I saw this great drop do you want to try it"
translates as
"Would you like me to throw you into a very complicated and painful drop which I only learnt by watching a friend and I haven't got the technique for it quite right yet, but I'd like to try it on you?"
Lady responds
"Oh I've got a bad back/arm/shoulder/neck* perhaps when it's healed"
"I think I'll pass "[[I]I did think of some other words for here but decided to be nice[/I]

I do usually only do dips and drops with either Mr Bop or other regular partners I know and feel comfortable with. I'l be sticking rigidly to that rule from now on.

I agree
I will openly sabotage moves if they try to put me into drops I'm getting very good at it (sabotage that is). On the whole I remember to tell people I haven't danced with before that I can't do drops as I have a bad neck and arm and they are normally OK with that, a few try and push it and I'll openly refuse. Haven't quite got to the walking off the floor stage yet - although I have come close! I am perfectly comfortable doing drops with people whom I trust who don't need to ask permission.

Have some hugs and stick to your rule and sabotage any other efforts.
I hope your back gets better soon gentle

Angel xx

[Donna]

That's really Bad!!
Why oh why do certain men feel the need to do this!!!!

MEN! Is all I can say.

Haven't quite got to the walking off the floor stage yet - although I have come close! I am perfectly comfortable doing drops with people whom I trust who don't need to ask permission.

If I warned them first not to do any drops due to an injury, and they did, then I certainly wouldn't be afraid to walk off the floor.

[Dreamer]

As a beginner of 4 months I've done precisely no dips or drops in class, but quite a few men have lead me into them in freestyle. I've enjoyed doing them so far, and generally assumed that the guy must know what he's doing if he's willing to risk his spine on a 5-ft-10-in-heels beginner.

And that philosophy worked fine until last weekend until someone invited me into a sideways lean, and then moved away! I thought I'd misread it, recovered my footing and said 'Oh sorry, I thought it was a lean', to which he replied 'It was!'
So when he put me into the same position a couple of moves later I held back and watched him, and he was literally leaping away sideways !
I don't know how he thought he could support me with both his feet in the air, but for the rest of the dance I contented myself with standing like a plank whenever he did his 2-footed jig thing. I'd like to know which class taught him that!

[jive_me]

I try only to do dips and drops with someone I'm comfortable with. There have only ever been 2 occassions where I was asked, I refused one gentleman because it was my first time at the venue and I wasn't sure about his strength, technique etc. He was entirely polite about it and made me feel very at ease Very reassuring that nice polite blokies are out there

xXx

[Frankie_4711]

I love dips, drops, seducers of all sorts and am quite happy to do them with anyone without them asking me first. BUT that is because I can - I don't have a bad back or any other limitation in that way. It does annoy me if an 'unknown' doesn't ask first because who says I AM happy to do them? I know I am, but he doesn't! It is only polite and considerate to ask.

If it is someone I don't know, or if I know they haven't been doing them for long I am always prepared to make it a small, controlled lean, but if he starts to lead a low drop then I'll go with the flow and am perfectly happy to go right down to the floor if that's where he wants it to go.

It occurs to me that I've never received personal feedback from a teacher on whether my technique is OK during dips or drops, even when I attended a specialist Dips&drops workshop.
I frequently see beginner ladies doing the most appalling things during drops, legs flailing, toes pointing to the ceiling, bodies sagging in the middle - it looks completely terrible, is no doubt dangerous, but like many other aspects of Ceroc, no real effort is made to put these things right during lessons

It's all well and good the teacher standing on the stage saying 'take your own weight', 'don't go floppy in the middle' etc, but who says everyone is following, or even understanding, the instructions correctly? I 'feel' that I do drops reasonably well - I've not had any complaints or negative comments from those who've led me into them; I am comfortable and confident with what I do; and haven't (yet!) sustained any injuries from doing them (in fact have managed to prevent a few potential disasters!) - but it would be very useful to get a 'professional' opinion. I'm waiting for a local workshop to come up, but from what has been said above it doesn't sound as if there will necessarily be any more on that front in the workshop.

[jivecat]

If it is someone I don't know, or if I know they haven't been doing them for long I am always prepared to make it a small, controlled lean, but if he starts to lead a low drop then I'll go with the flow and am perfectly happy to go right down to the floor if that's where he wants it to go.

Yeah, I quite get off on that thrill of sheer terror as I see the floor hurtling up towards my skull.

it would be very useful to get a 'professional' opinion. I'm waiting for a local workshop to come up, but from what has been said above it doesn't sound as if there will necessarily be any more on that front in the workshop.

I reckon you'd have to have a private lesson to get decent feedback, or, ask dancers you know and respect to make a few comments. Working in a dance studio with proper mirrors also helps with improving lines etc.

[TheTramp]

I'm waiting for a local workshop to come up, but from what has been said above it doesn't sound as if there will necessarily be any more on that front in the workshop.

I believe that there's at least one dips/drops workshop at the BFG this coming weekend. It's not that far from Kent!

I particularly know that Sparkles is looking forward to it!

[doc martin]

Yeah, I quite get off on that thrill of sheer terror as I see the floor hurtling up towards my skull.

It's an optical illusion. The floor is not actually moving*. Similarly the stars moving round your head after the impact are also an optical illusion**. Or perhaps that's an urban myth and you only see them in cartoons. I guess there's only one way to find out. Ouch!

*Note 1 for pedants: do not start a relativity derail at this point. It will be relatively boring.

**Note 2 for pedants: this is not because we move round the stars rather than vice versa.

[Rhythm King]

Can I just point out ladies, that this goes both ways. There are a number of "suicide droppers" out there who throw themselves recklessly earthwards with no consideration that the lead may look big and strong, but could also have a back injury (hint ). This happens to me sometimes and half the time I haven't even gone to lead a deep drop, intending instead a gentle, controlled dip.

I can and do perform deep drops with people I know, whose technique I can rely on, and who I trust - when the environment is safe to do so. Even then, little misshaps can sometimes happen. Communication is the key.

*Note 1 for pedants: do not start a relativity derail at this point. It will be relatively boring.

Doesn't that qualify as incestuous necrophilia?