Are you comfortable dancing drops with

[Ghost]

Ok, vote with your feet.

Take Care,
Christopher

[ducasi]

Who, on a public poll is going to answer "someone I don’t know, without asking"?

[baldrick]

I tend to be well conservative, which has led to me being asked in a slightly hurt tone how come I didn't dance leans and drops. Had to explain my basic concern that as I couldn't guarentee my partners safety, it meant no drops and few dips.
Now I'm a bit more confidant, but still like loads of space before trying flinging my partner about.

[Lynn]

Who, on a public poll is going to answer "someone I don’t know, without asking"?

It depends if you are talking about lead or follow. I have danced drops with leads I didn't know, who didn't ask me. And depending on the rest of the dance, or my observations of them with others, I might feel comfortable. (Though I wouldn't vote that as it would very much depend on the lead and how secure I felt and whether it was the first dance with them or I had danced with them earlier in the evening...)

The rest of the poll also depends on what you mean by 'someone you know'. Someone you know as a friend and regular dance partner who goes to your weekly venue? Someone who you have danced with at freestyle nights every so often? Someone you have danced with a couple of times at a weekender 6 months earlier?

[Ghost]

Who, on a public poll is going to answer "someone I don’t know, without asking"?

The people who do it.

I believe it comes down to 2 main choices for them

Either: You drop people you don't know without asking first, but you believe that this is reasonable, within the Ceroc ethos etc - Vote for the above
Or: You drop people you don't know without asking first, but you don't believe that is reasonable - STOP DOING IT

Take care,
Christopher

[Ghost]

Hi Lynn,
Thanks for the points you've made. I made a decision with the poll to try and keep it as simple as possible and let people discuss subtleties with the actual posts.

It depends if you are talking about lead or follow. I have danced drops with leads I didn't know, who didn't ask me. And depending on the rest of the dance, or my observations of them with others, I might feel comfortable. (Though I wouldn't vote that as it would very much depend on the lead and how secure I felt and whether it was the first dance with them or I had danced with them earlier in the evening...)

In part, the poll is intended to guage the feel of what people feel comfortable with generally. In part, it lets others on the forum know where you stand. So for your above points "Someone I don’t know, without asking" wouldn't really reflect what you're comfortable with

The rest of the poll also depends on what you mean by 'someone you know'. Someone you know as a friend and regular dance partner who goes to your weekly venue? Someone who you have danced with at freestyle nights every so often? Someone you have danced with a couple of times at a weekender 6 months earlier?

Someone who if they asked "Would you mind if I lead drops?" you would be able to make an informed and safe decision about. I don't think this can be defined in terms of time, how often you see them etc (unless you're married )

Just in case the poll isn't clear, it's intended for both leads and follows ( I realise that Lynn's understood this , but so far only guys' have answered - early days though)

Take care,
Christopher

[ducasi]

The people who do it.

I believe it comes down to 2 main choices for them

Either: You drop people you don't know without asking first, but you believe that this is reasonable, within the Ceroc ethos etc - Vote for the above...

How about a public poll on who thinks that [some activity that society frowns upon*] is acceptable?

Even if I did, I would probably be aware that society disagrees and I wouldn't want to express my beliefs on a public forum where I know I would come if for strong criticism.

Likewise, if I was a serial dropper, I'd probably be aware that lots of people would frown on my passion for drops. I'd just figure they don't understand how good I am at them, but rather than invite criticism from these ignorant folks, I'd probably just not vote in this public poll.

* I had initially put "wife beating", then I thought "voting tory", but then decided that "voting labour" is just as bad... So I decided that I'd leave it up to you to think of something that fits. Feel free to think as dirty as you want to.

EDIT: Lynn, indeed I forgot about followers... You say you are comfortable with some strangers who drop you without asking. But as you say it's conditional, so again, you and other followers are unlikely to vote for being dropped willy-nilly.

[Ghost]

How about a public poll on who thinks that [some activity that society frowns upon*] is acceptable?

Ceroc forum - what this Ceroc society thinks are acceptable social mores for Ceroc dancing. Makes sense to me

Even if I did, I would probably be aware that society disagrees and I wouldn't want to express my beliefs on a public forum where I know I would come if for strong criticism.

Fair enough. But would you then go and do it in public? That to me suggests either they feel they can get away with it because we're too nice, or they genuinely believe it's acceptable. (To be fair it may be. No tablets of stone with "thou shalt not drop without asking" are currently in my possession.)

Likewise, if I was a serial dropper, I'd probably be aware that lots of people would frown on my passion for drops. I'd just figure they don't understand how good I am at them, but rather than invite criticism from these ignorant folks, I'd probably just not vote in this public poll.

I'm inviting criticism for being a coward / poor dancer because I'll only drop certain ladies I've practiced with. I've quietly walked out of an Intermediate class and gone and played with the beginners because I honestly didn't feel the drop demonstrated was within my ability to do safely. I was told afterwards that "I worry too much" and "It's quite easy really". I've been looked at like a lunatic for asking ladies in Intermediate Classes "Are you happy doing this drop / dip / lean and if so how far?" Some ladies think I'm questioning their ability, others that I'm saying they're fat. If forumites have the conviction to drop a lady without asking and believe it's right, stand up and be counted.

Sorry Ducasi - This thing needs more smilies. I get what you're saying and truth is you may well be right. But even now, I'm honestly not sure. It'll be interesting to see how others vote. Respect to you for voting the way you did.

Take care
Christopher

[Ghost]

If forumites have the conviction to drop a lady without asking and believe it's right, stand up and be counted.

Ok fair's, fair - to TimBP for the courage of his convictions

Take care
Christopher

[timbp]

Ok fair's, fair - to TimBP for the courage of his convictions

And I should probably add some clarifying comments.

I lead relatively few dips and drops (by Sydney standards; may still be more than is common in the UK). I do often ask if the lady is willing to do drops. But if a lady has demonstrated she had good balance and generally appears to be a good dancer, I will assume she can/will drop and I may try to lead a drop. (Back to Nessa's comment -- for a certain level of dancer, these moves seem to be assumed to be part of the dance here.)

But I'm also watching for any baulking, and aim to move smoothly into something else if necessary (can't yet do this smoothly enough).
More often I abort it myself because we haven't set it up properly, or the space has vanished.

[ducasi]

Indeed, respect to timbp for voting for and defending his position. Perhaps though the Ozzie culture is more approving of this – everything I've read suggests that it is.

[Baruch]

I'm inviting criticism for being a coward / poor dancer because I'll only drop certain ladies I've practiced with. I've quietly walked out of an Intermediate class and gone and played with the beginners because I honestly didn't feel the drop demonstrated was within my ability to do safely.

That's certainly not cowardly or poor dancing. That's being considerate.

Personally, although I do gentle dips and leans quite happily with anyone (except new beginners), there are very few people with whom I will do actual drops. In fact, I can think of only two ladies with whom I regularly do drops, and I'm married to one of them. Mainly, that's out of a sense of self-preservation. I remember doing a drop in a class once with a lady who didn't know what she was doing, and my back and knees paid the price.

Also, I won't do a drop on the dance floor that I haven't first practised off the dance floor. If I'm not certain I can do it right, I won't lead it.

Now, if only I could persuade some ladies to stop throwing themselves into drops I haven't led, I'd be happy

[MartinHarper]

I feel very comfortable with any leader who attempts to drop me, because I'm that confident in my inability to follow such leads. Safety in poor technique.
With a few exceptions, I don't lead drops in freestyle. Whenever I have lead a drop, I've always been comfortable (or I wouldn't lead it, duh), so I checked all the boxes.
I also checked "I don’t dance drops at all", but I think I was just getting carried away at that point.

[Ghost]

That's certainly not cowardly or poor dancing. That's being considerate.

Thanks - I'm aware not everyone shares your view though.

there are very few people with whom I will do actual drops. In fact, I can think of only two ladies with whom I regularly do drops, and I'm married to one of them. Mainly, that's out of a sense of self-preservation.

(Except the marriage thing. 2 ladies is right though)

I remember doing a drop in a class once with a lady who didn't know what she was doing, and my back and knees paid the price.

When I learnt the ballroom drop in class I said to every lady, I just want to do a tiny dip, even did the inch signal with my thumb and first finger. One lady tried to go all the way down to the deck (I blocked her descent with my thigh, but I wasn't a happy bunny.)

Also, I won't do a drop on the dance floor that I haven't first practised off the dance floor. If I'm not certain I can do it right, I won't lead it.

Now, if only I could persuade some ladies to stop throwing themselves into drops I haven't led, I'd be happy

Take care,
Christopher

[Cruella]

As a follower you would gauge the unknown mans ability by the first dance with him. So although i've checked that i would do drops with someone i didn't know after being asked, it would be pointless him asking the question before we've started dancing!
A man would be wise to start off with a couple of dips so that each partner could get a sense of the others ability, strength, balance etc. I am very wary of drops but instinct usually tells me if the guy is 'safe' enough for me to go with it. Equally there are guys i know well and dance with lots, but won't do drops with! So it's really hard to make a sweeping statement.

[Gus]

Now, if only I could persuade some ladies to stop throwing themselves into drops I haven't led, I'd be happy

In some clubs thats a bigger problems than the guys! Funnily enough, though in NZ they do far more drops I've never had a problem with 'suicidal drop females'. Wish I ould say the same about the UK.

[jivecat]

The rest of the poll also depends on what you mean by 'someone you know'. Someone you know as a friend and regular dance partner who goes to your weekly venue? Someone who you have danced with at freestyle nights every so often? Someone you have danced with a couple of times at a weekender 6 months earlier?

On Planet Ceroc surely all of these count as "someone you know"?

Having read the leaders' contributions so far it seems clear to me that you're all thoughtful, capable chaps who work on your technique and have a care for the lady's safety and enjoyment. In fact, the sort of stranger it would probably be a pleasure to be dropped by.

I have not minded being dropped without asking by complete strangers who know what they're doing. But it's deeply alarming to be man-handled by some over-confident guy with wobbly legs and no timing or balance, often only a few weeks into beginner classes. I'm getting good at resisting, or pretending to drop, (baulking, good word, Baruch) while keeping all of my weight firmly under my control, just in case.

The most infuriating thing is when the guy complacently announces "You'll be safe with me, luv, I know what I'm doing." No doubt lady forumites could supply some interesting retorts to use in this circumstance.

I think issuing people with some sort of "drops licence" (following on from Gus's red/yellow card system would be a good way of preventing people with insufficient technique from trying them on unsuspecting strangers.

I haven't got a bad back/neck/shoulder (yet) so I am not all that bothered by dips/drops, though I often feel a bit concerned about the leader's back. I also think that ordinary moves done badly can cause just as much damage. I think the worst type of move for potential damage would be back-bends - physically strenuous for the lady, an abrupt and explosive movement and more often than not, roughly led.

MartinHarper - no matter how carefully you do a drop, and how confident you are of your technique, if the lady has some sort of physical injury than they are a no-go area - so asking permission is still imperative.

[KatieR]

Hmmm interesting discussion.

Being Australian, and having first learnt Ceroc in Australia dips and drops were commonplace. However, let me stipulate that I learnt in Adelaide where there are only about 20 people on the Ceroc scene so I was dancing with the same people all the time so became very confident in drops and even the occassion wrap somersault.

Over here, dancers are a little more subdued even when there is space on the dance floor. As much as I love doing drops, there is only 1 (possibly 2) people over here (both from New Zealand) that I do really flashy drops (eg ballroom drop with an arm letgo and catch).

I myself get rather annoyed when on a crowded dance floor and someone decides to put me into a drop kick for example (especially when they drag the lady across the floor - what are you guys thinking when you do that? IMHO its uncomfortable for the lady and looks awful if the lady doesn't push up through her hips) I will and have said to guys not to do that move on certain floors and as the lead for this move is quite different here to the way it is led in australia, I can usually (not all the time though) work out when its coming and sabotage it.

I believe in complete safety at all times when doing these moves and have on the odd occassion seen quite dangerous drops and lifts being taught in a class. If a lady hasn't been taught how to push up through her hips and bend her right leg, straighten her left leg and how to use the left leg and her body to take some of her own weight, it can often have dire consequences. Especially in a one arm drop if the lady cant help the guy get herself back up it can be dangerous. It makes me cringe sometimes watching people do these moves unsafely.

[TiggsTours]

Where's the option "Only with someone I feel confident is capable of doing them?"

I have happily done drops with someone I don't know, who hasn't asked, because very quickly into the dance I have already established they are the type of person who knows what they are doing, and wouldn't lead me into something where I wasn't completely safe. At the same time, there are guys I've known for years, who I still won't do drops with, as I don't feel at all confident that they are capable of doing them in such a way that I won't topple off balance, and be able to support my own weight, or give me the correct support that I need to hold myself in such a position that puts my safety (and my back) at risk.

[Zebra Woman]

As a follower you would gauge the unknown mans ability by the first dance with him. So although i've checked that i would do drops with someone i didn't know after being asked, it would be pointless him asking the question before we've started dancing!
A man would be wise to start off with a couple of dips so that each partner could get a sense of the others ability, strength, balance etc. I am very wary of drops but instinct usually tells me if the guy is 'safe' enough for me to go with it. Equally there are guys i know well and dance with lots, but won't do drops with! So it's really hard to make a sweeping statement.

Yes this is impossible for me to answer too. I like to be asked if I do drops by a stranger.Agree that during the dance is best, as by then I can tell whether I'm going to feel safe doing them.

I know I said, 'I don't like any verbal during a dance', on another thread. I've just changed my mind.

I really enjoy dips drops and leans they add an important extra dimension to the dance IMO. But I only enjoy them if there is enough space to do them, I'm warmed up , relatively injury free, the lead is good, everyone's floorcraft is excellent....I know that never happens.

If I'm not yet warmed up and I'm about to dance with a stranger, I will always say 'no dips please, I need to warm up first', so that's the first 30 minutes of each freestyle ruled out...Again, if there is an imbalance of numbers and I have been sitting out a while I would again say no to dips and explain I need to warm up first. This is why the Daventry nights trouble me, I am only really OK for dips from 11.00 onwards.

If I said 'no dips please' and didn't give a reason, then that would be because I don't feel safe with that person . I would not want to be pressed for an explanation on the dancefloor, but if I was I would certainly give it.

ZW