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Thread: Open Jive Championships 2003 - Blackpool

  1. #141
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    we were doing it for fun
    Just keep on thinking that DV. After all, that's why we all should be doing it.

    Steve

  2. #142
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    Originally posted by Dancing Veela
    If 70% of dancing must be recognisable as Modern Jive - and a couple dance Blues for a whole record (say in the final when they are most likely to get a slowish song to do the Blues to) - then is this breaking the rules or not?
    No-one has yet come up with a definition of Modern Jive. The only way I could see someone being disqualified is if it was obviously a different dance, and therefore couldn't be jive.

    I've never seen a definition of Blues dance either, so it would be an interesting argument.

    David

  3. #143
    Papa Smurf
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    i think the plagiarism rules mean that you cant use someones routine without their permission. As simple as that. It doesnt matter who did the choreography professional or otherwise. If the rmours are correct - It'll be interesting to see two teams do the same routine, but if they've both had permission of the choreographer (even if it was at different times) then theres nothing against the C2D rules, i would imagine one of the teams would cancel though.


  4. #144
    Registered User Dancing Veela's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    Just keep on thinking that DV. After all, that's why we all should be doing it.

    Steve
    Slainte Steve. That's worth a lick!


    DVx

  5. #145
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    Originally posted by Dancing Veela
    neither of the Scottish teams have had any teacher involvement in the choreography
    I can't see that making any difference. Just because someone can teach doesn't mean they can choreograph. I've been to lots of classes where I've been taught moves very well, but the link to the next move looked and felt horrible. If some teachers can't link 2 moves together, what chance have they of putting a 4 minute routine together.

    Any time I've been involved in a team routine, there are always 2 or 3 people that have ideas on the music, the look they want, the moves that work. They are the natural choreographers, not necessarily the teachers.

    And if you think that a 'Dream Team' equates to a 'Dream Performance' look at 2002 US Basketball Team.

    Everything will come down to each team's performance on the day, and if your team are enjoying themselves, the performance will be so much better.

    So stop worrying, and enjoy it!

    David

  6. #146
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    Slainte Steve. That's worth a lick!
    What?? Another one? At this rate, you won't have time for your cabaret, as you'll be spending the entire day licking me!!

    Steve

  7. #147
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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    I think that part of entering the competition is all about doing your own routine. I have to say that I wouldn't want someone else to choreograph a routine for me to perform, even with giving the choreographer the credit.
    A team needs choreographed - otherwise they are just a group of dancers. If the choreographer is a member of the team then I could envisage problems in organising and directing everyone else - it would be easier for someone not actually in the piece to direct.
    Saying that, should it matter if that person is a friend, teacher at the team's main class, or live 12000 miles away? I think that the choreographer is a part of the troup, whether actually performing or not.
    But if the origional choreographer put the moves together and someone else directed them with different style, interpritation or 'emotional content', who should be noted down as the choreographer? Would "Based on a routine by X" suffice?

  8. #148
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    Originally posted by TheTramp

    I have to say that I wouldn't want someone else to choreograph a routine for me to perform, even with giving the choreographer the credit.
    You must be a much better choreographer than I am (actually, you definitely would be, I've only been dancing two years).

    If I were good enough to do a showcase and could somehow get Simon de Lisle, Julie Gunn or Nicky Haslam to do the choreography, I'd be ecstatic. I just realised that they're all UK exports. Damn, where's the home-grown Aussie talent?

    If you think of the choreographer/dancer relationship being like playwright/actor, does that make it easier to accept? (Or is that a completely off-base analogy?).

  9. #149
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    I think that the difference here (and I know I didn't explain myself as well as I should have), is that if you could get Simon or Nicky to choreograph a routine, that'd be great (I still wouldn't do it myself, but that's just me), but the people doing this haven't done that. They've just taken a routine, put together for different people, for a different event, and just used it, presumably learning it off video or something. The choreographer won't even be there to take a share of the applause, since presumably she'll be 12,000 miles away, sleeping.

    To me, that's not in the spirit of the dance. And like I said previously. If ever team decided to do that, and all turned up in the same costumes, doing the same routine, we'd all just be bored by the end. Would it still be acceptable then?

    Steve

    PS.
    You must be a much better choreographer than I am
    Please don't forget, I'm just a beginner!!

  10. #150
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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    If every team decided to do that, and all turned up in the same costumes, doing the same routine, we'd all just be bored by the end. Would it still be acceptable then?
    I don't think that would happen, exactly because we'd all be bored. Some team with a fresh new routine would romp home past the boring routine.

    Although Ecuador is a very cool routine, I suspect a team performing it in an Australian comp would crash and burn because all the judges would have probably seen it a dozen times already.

    I'm surprised that there are two routines to the same music at your comp. I would have thought you could reserve a song to avoid problems like this.

  11. #151
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    I don't think that the problem has ever come up before. It's the first time I've ever heard of a team cabaret using a pre-choreographed routine. I guess the chances of two teams using the same music and choreographing two completely different routines are pretty slim. Still, something to think about to add in the rules/entry forms for next year.

    Steve

  12. #152
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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    I don't think that the problem has ever come up before. It's the first time I've ever heard of a team cabaret using a pre-choreographed routine. I guess the chances of two teams using the same music and choreographing two completely different routines are pretty slim. Still, something to think about to add in the rules/entry forms for next year.
    I would have expected most people to have a pre-choreographed routine... with a few changes along the way as the dancers learn it possibly but they still would have a routine in mind first. Wouldnt they ? do people not do it this way ?

  13. #153
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dancing Veela
    ........so I guess I'm getting a little nervous to be up against a 'Dream Team' we were doing it for fun - not thinking we were up against 'professional' choreographers.

    DVx

    Hey Kid, remember its for FUN! No matter how good Nicky H's team(s) are, they would be hard pressed to match the display that Sue Freemans Sheffield team put on in 2000. It was so good that a lot of people at the time regarded it as unbeatable (I've still seen nothing to match it).... but that didn't stop people from competing.

    There are the small minority who go into these competitions to win, the rest go for fun .... and they probably have a far better time of it ... they have nothing to lose and no reputations to protect.

    Enjoy the day and savour the moment.

  14. #154
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    DS....

    Nope. That would be a choreographed routine. Put together for the competition, by the people doing it. Quite like what you are doing with your routine I imagine.

    What I would define as a pre-choreographed routine is what is rumoured to be happening by at least one team where they are taking a routine already put together by someone else, and performing it without putting any of their own choreography in at all.

    Since I'm sure that the routines are judged at least partly on the choreography, to do a routine that you had no part in developing, and was developed for someone else entirely just doesn't seem right.

    (If you were part of the original team though, and have just changed in a few team members, that's not so bad ).

    Steve

  15. #155
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if I'm missing the point, but....

    is there any difference between having a professional choreographer and couples getting professional coaching incorporating tricks of the trade and set routines of moves? Both happen and they seem to be part of 'the game' at the top end. Is this a bad thinng?

  16. #156
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    Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
    I would have expected most people to have a pre-choreographed routine... with a few changes along the way as the dancers learn it possibly but they still would have a routine in mind first. Wouldnt they ? do people not do it this way ?
    Most choreographers I know would just have the music, and a couple of ideas for what to do with the highlights. They then get together with either the full team, or just a few key members, and put together the rest.

    I only know 2 people who are good enough to do the whole thing by themselves (ie without the dancers present), and both live in the US. (I've not seen Nicky or Simon since they left the UK, so wouldn't be in a position to judge their work)


    Originally posted by Gus
    is there any difference between having a professional choreographer and couples getting professional coaching incorporating tricks of the trade and set routines of moves? Both happen and they seem to be part of 'the game' at the top end. Is this a bad thinng?
    There is a difference. I would expect a choreographer to be more experienced in musical interpretation, and at looking at the routine as a whole. He would also tend to work with what the dancers can do at the present.

    Coaching would concentrate on individual moves, techniques and ideas, and trying to improve the standard of the dancers.

    Usually you go to a choreographer for a routine, and to a coach to get good enough to do it.

    David

  17. #157
    Registered User Dancing Veela's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    Most choreographers I know would just have the music, and a couple of ideas for what to do with the highlights. They then get together with either the full team, or just a few key members, and put together the rest.
    Usually you go to a choreographer for a routine, and to a coach to get good enough to do it.

    David
    oh NOW I know where we've gone wrong then eh DS?

    I guess my question is 'Is the 'team' entering the 'Team Cabaret' judged only on the way they dance to the music or are they judged on the choreography as well?'

    If the choreography is part of the criteria, then how can you judge the 'team' if the choreographer is not part of that team (you could have a team member who was the choreographer and didn't dance - but that's different from a team who've 'bought' a choregraphed routine.

    Thanks for your encouragement Gus - of course we'll still go down and do the fun bit - but I'm not sure it's AS MUCH fun thinking we've no chance of winning (having said that I'm entering the Intermediate with no thoughts of winning and given the partner I have it's going to be one of the most fun parts of the day)

    DVx

  18. #158
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    Originally posted by Gus
    Hey Kid, remember its for FUN! No matter how good Nicky H's team(s) are, they would be hard pressed to match the display that Sue Freemans Sheffield team put on in 2000. It was so good that a lot of people at the time regarded it as unbeatable (I've still seen nothing to match it)....
    So...you havn't seen the Dundee teams routine then?

    Don't worry DV, if you are part of the same Dundee team as Sheena, then you've nothing to worry about, coz I've seen it and think it's fab.......

    DD

  19. #159
    Registered User Dancing Veela's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dance Demon
    So...you havn't seen the Dundee teams routine then?

    Don't worry DV, if you are part of the same Dundee team as Sheena, then you've nothing to worry about, coz I've seen it and think it's fab.......

    DD
    No No - different routine altogether! But still fab obviously!!!!!

    DV X

  20. #160
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    I guess my question is 'Is the 'team' entering the 'Team Cabaret' judged only on the way they dance to the music or are they judged on the choreography as well?'
    Yeah. I guess this is where I was going, although not put quite so succinctly.

    I think that the team has to be judged on the choreography too - else you could turn up, do perfect first moves in perfect unison, with breaks at the appropriate places in the music (ok, I know that's going to extremes), and then win. Which obviously wouldn't happen.

    I think that's why I don't think that people who have no input or are in any way connected with a routine should possibly be using said routine.

    In the judging criteria published (and it doesn't specify any difference for team cabarets), (a) Variation, difficulty and execution of moves (b) Floor craft, good pattern and direction, good use of the floor (c) The ability to dance to the rhythm, and character of the music, are all brought out by the choreographer as much as the people doing the dancing.

    I don't know. I'm still willing to hear a convincing arguement for allowing it, although I haven't yet..... (other than it's allowed everywhere else).

    Steve

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