Subtleties and improvements to Ceroc moves

[Ghost]

Either how have you adapted a Ceroc move to make it "better" or what's a subtlty you realised for a specific move that isn't explicitedly taught?

eg I've noticed that halfway through the first move, when the lady is at your side kind of mirror imaged to you, to bring her hand back up to your left shoulder teachers actually start the lead by going down/forward with their hand rather than just going straight up.

Thanks
Christopher

[ChrisA]

eg I've noticed that halfway through the first move, when the lady is at your side kind of mirror imaged to you, to bring her hand back up to your left shoulder teachers actually start the lead by going down/forward with their hand rather than just going straight up.

Excellent piece of observation.

The reason is that she won't end up back facing you unless she first steps forward, and leading her forward (into the pivot as she comes back to face you), rather than pulling her hand up, is a much better way of initiating the movement (you don't pull her hand up other times you want her to step forward, do you?).

There are lots and lots of details like this, that make a lead more followable, and less "clunky" feeling. Be on the lookout for these.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Trailing your right hand down from the lady's shoulder or elbow to take her second hand after a return is not explicitly taught, but works well.

[Lou]

Trailing your right hand down from the lady's shoulder or elbow to take her second hand after a return is not explicitly taught, but works well.

Actually, it's one of the things Ceroc™ doesn't teach as well as LeRoc. It's standard practice around these parts, and taught in every class I've been to here. But I was surprised not to see it mentioned at any Ceroc™ class. It's straightforward, easy to do, and, as you say, works well.

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Trailing your right hand down from the lady's shoulder or elbow to take her second hand after a return is not explicitly taught, but works well.

Actually, it's one of the things Ceroc™ doesn't teach as well as LeRoc. It's standard practice around these parts, and taught in every class I've been to here. But I was surprised not to see it mentioned at any Ceroc™ class. It's straightforward, easy to do, and, as you say, works well.

You might not have seen it mentioned at Cheltenham Lou, but Nico brings this point up very frequently at Gloucester.

[ducasi]

Actually, it's one of the things Ceroc™ doesn't teach as well as LeRoc. It's standard practice around these parts, and taught in every class I've been to here. But I was surprised not to see it mentioned at any Ceroc™ class. It's straightforward, easy to do, and, as you say, works well.

Round here we're taught to trail a hand across her back to connect with the lady's arm around about her elbow... Are you talking about anything different from that? Can't think why I'd want to start all the way up her shoulder...

[MartinHarper]

I was surprised not to see it mentioned at any Ceroc™ class. It's straightforward, easy to do, and, as you say, works well.

It's mentioned at Kidderminster and Worcester on occasion. Might only be in the beginner classes, though - can't remember if Debbie talks about it to intermediates at all.

what's a subtelty you realised for a specific move that isn't explicitedly taught?

Whilst the "Straight Jacket" ties up both the woman's arms, it doesn't do anything about her knees.

[Whitebeard]

Round here we're taught to trail a hand across her back to connect with the lady's arm around about her elbow... Are you talking about anything different from that? Can't think why I'd want to start all the way up her shoulder...

I think we're all talking of same thing and your description is better than ESG's.

[spindr]

Round here we're taught to trail a hand across her back to connect with the lady's arm around about her elbow... Are you talking about anything different from that? Can't think why I'd want to start all the way up her shoulder...

If there's a large gap between the lady's back and her elbow you hand may drag across her chest (especially if she's somewhat rubenesque) -- if you start on the shoulder you're fairly well guaranteed not to find yourself holding anything other than a hand when it finishes sliding down

There's another subtlety -- as the hand slides down her arm you can move it to catch the outside of her hand (ready to lead an inside turn) or to catch the inside of her hand (ready to lead an outside turn).

SpinDr.

[Gadget]

If there's a large gap between the lady's back and her elbow you hand may drag across her chest (especially if she's somewhat rubenesque) -- if you start on the shoulder you're fairly well guaranteed not to find yourself holding anything other than a hand when it finishes sliding down

Unless the lady is of unusual proportions and lacking in support, you should be miles away from anything: the hands should be at hip/elbow level.
I see more danger with the "shoulder" style of things because men are born lazy and it's too much effort to lift the hand that high. And your hand is traveling from high to low, following the lady's body - I'm amazed that there are not more complaints.

[bigdjiver]

Trailing your right hand down from the lady's shoulder or elbow to take her second hand after a return is not explicitly taught, but works well.

Michaela teaches this.

[Tessalicious]

Whilst the "Straight Jacket" ties up both the woman's arms, it doesn't do anything about her knees.

Indeed - a point which I frequently forget when put into this position, as it for some reason makes me feel more panickingly claustrophobic than a much closer ballroom hold - but I'll try to remember the knee for next time (DavidJames, watch out!)

Oh and I forgot to mention - the special Amir First Move (if I'm allowed) omits the beat where the lady is turned back into the man's side, making for a smoother exit which is also more musically flexible.

[LMC]

Round here we're taught to trail a hand across her back to connect with the lady's arm around about her elbow... Are you talking about anything different from that? Can't think why I'd want to start all the way up her shoulder...

I've been in lessons where that has been taught as well. Including one where one guy had to be gently told that I'm tall, therefore my back is higher up... (gently just in case it was a genuine error, if he does it to me again then I will publicly humiliate him). IMO, the trailing from the shoulder/upper arm/elbow works well, and if the lead is watching, I can't see that they would inadvertently catch the, er, chest area in error.

[DavidY]

IMO, the trailing from the shoulder/upper arm/elbow works well, and if the lead is watching, I can't see that they would inadvertently catch the, er, chest area in error.

Hmmm...
Her (indignant): Are you staring at my chest?!
Him: Of course not - I was just watching to make sure my hand trails across the right areas.

[LMC]

And the problem with watching her arm is?

If the lead is a bit, er, premature, I can see that they might catch the wrong part of the anatomy if they are using the 'back trail' method - misread spindr's original post, sorry.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Round here we're taught to trail a hand across her back to connect with the lady's arm around about her elbow... Are you talking about anything different from that? Can't think why I'd want to start all the way up her shoulder...

If there's a large gap between the lady's back and her elbow you hand may drag across her chest (especially if she's somewhat rubenesque) -- if you start on the shoulder you're fairly well guaranteed not to find yourself holding anything other than a hand when it finishes sliding down

There's another subtlety -- as the hand slides down her arm you can move it to catch the outside of her hand (ready to lead an inside turn) or to catch the inside of her hand (ready to lead an outside turn).

Unless the lady is of unusual proportions and lacking in support, you should be miles away from anything: the hands should be at hip/elbow level.
I see more danger with the "shoulder" style of things because men are born lazy and it's too much effort to lift the hand that high. And your hand is traveling from high to low, following the lady's body - I'm amazed that there are not more complaints.

And for my next trick, I'm going to start an argument over whether boiled eggs should be eaten from the pointy end or the blunt end.

For ****'s sake guys, it's just a way of getting hold of the lady's spare arm, not a proposal for marriage. Get a grip.

[LMC]

And for my next trick, I'm going to start an argument over whether boiled eggs should be eaten from the pointy end or the blunt end.

Go on then. I think a poll would be good, haven't seen one of those on the forum for ages.

oh, and boom-boom

[Gadget]

And for my next trick, I'm going to start an argument over whether boiled eggs should be eaten from the pointy end or the blunt end.

Blunt end: you can dip more toast that way.

For ****'s sake guys, it's just a way of getting hold of the lady's spare arm, not a proposal for marriage. Get a grip.

erm... I thought that's what we were arguing about: getting a grip? {}

[MartinHarper]

Oh and I forgot to mention - the special Amir First Move (if I'm allowed) omits the beat where the lady is turned back into the man's side, making for a smoother exit which is also more musically flexible.

Hmm - I've ended up with a few of those by accident. What's the lead difference meant to be?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Hmm - I've ended up with a few of those by accident. What's the lead difference meant to be?

Amir teaches a first move where you lead the lady in to your side and allow your right hand to travel round her lower back to her far hip. On the exit you raise the left hand, lead with the right forearm to turn the lady clockwise on the same beat as she steps back. it misses out a count (two beats) and fits exactly into two bars of music (without a return). It's not a 'special' lead, you just lead the lady to do a travelling turn.