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Thread: What could kill MJ?

  1. #21
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat
    With reference to the high amount people spend on petrol to attend MJ events (on the Fair Price for a Freestyle thread) a good old-fashioned oil crisis or petrol shortage would easily halve overnight the number of people attending most venues. I wouldn't even know how to get the local Leicester venue by public transport.

    If the crisis continued for any length of time I could foresee most venues closing down, at least temporarily, as it would cease to be economic or practicable to run them.
    We would all have to teach our neighbours to dance then. There have been times here when we can't go out by car* (most recently in Sep) and therefore most events of any sort are cancelled and you only go out to things or friends houses you can walk to. Usually only lasts a few days or at most a week fortunately.

    *in case someone decides that your car would be much more useful if it were parked across a road. On fire.

  2. #22
    Registered User latinlover's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    .

    In the long run, it may turn out that "dancing solo" was the aberration, and that partner dancing is much more permanent as a cultural phenomenon (whew, managed to spell it this time).
    ...


    David I do believe you are right
    In the larger context of the history of dancing,in western society, solo dancing only evolved in the late fifties(?), and fifty-sixty years is not much really

    ..........waits for some dance history anorak to wikipaedia him down in flames............

    Partner dancing MUST be on the increase - I mean, apart from the evidence of our own experience in the MJ & salsa scene,who would have thought we'd see a THIRD series of SCD in a primetime saturday evening slot?

  3. #23
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    So, any thoughts on what could kill the MJ dance scene off?
    Funny you should ask that.

    If you'd been at Jango last night and heard DJ Kenobe plug in his Mic and sing over the last song of the evening you wouldn't need to ask this question any more.

  4. #24
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by latinlover
    David I do believe you are right
    It's not easy being so clever you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by latinlover
    In the larger context of the history of dancing,in western society, solo dancing only evolved in the late fifties(?), and fifty-sixty years is not much really
    On the other hand, to put it in context, partner dancing in the form we know it has only been around for, what, a few centuries? Arguably, there's more history of "group" dancing over the past couple of thousand years.

    Who knows what will be popular in the long run? To quote John Maynard Keynes, "In the long run, we're all dead.". Miserable git that he was.

    Quote Originally Posted by latinlover
    Partner dancing MUST be on the increase - I mean, apart from the evidence of our own experience in the MJ & salsa scene,who would have thought we'd see a THIRD series of SCD in a primetime saturday evening slot?
    Anecdotally, yes, I think partner dancing is increaing - but there are no numbers I could find to back this up.

    That's why I asked the question "How many dancers are in the UK?" (and found the answer is "No-one knows" )

    Quote Originally Posted by Will
    If you'd been at Jango last night and heard DJ Kenobe plug in his Mic and sing over the last song of the evening you wouldn't need to ask this question any more.
    - but, surely you're not saying Jango is mere common-or-garden MJ? I thought it was a spiritual experience for higher beings?

  5. #25
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    - but, surely you're not saying Jango is mere common-or-garden MJ? I thought it was a spiritual experience for higher beings?
    Tell you, the guy on the mike last night was pretty high... Not so sure about spiritual though...

  6. #26
    Registered User DianaS's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    turf war
    aggressive marketing/promotional techniques
    Making your crowd feel they were a market rather than part of the entertainment
    Killing off the diversity of teaching styles
    venue owners or franchise holders acting more like gangsters than dancers
    Next?

  7. #27
    Registered User Anna's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Awwwww but being a gangster looks like so much fun ....


    "You.. yes you.. you move during a break ONE more time and you'll be sleeping with the fishes... "

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    All well and good, but MJ dates from the 1980s, while Waltz dates from the 1780s. We're a couple of centuries early to brag about how much more survivable MJ is than ballroom.
    This is a fabulous thread. I agree with everone except MH - as usual MJ does not simply date from the 1980s. It wasn't born whole on a particular day. It evolved from a previous dance due to a change in the environment and that dance evolved from another, right back to the original dance that was an African tribal dance - and before that, who knows? The environment was the music. And it will probably be the music that kills MJ - but it will take a long time.

    Consider the example of Rock & Roll. In the 1950s music and the dance fitted together nicely. People loved the Rock & Roll scene, they loved the music, they did the dance, met their husbands and wives, etc. During the '60s music changed and by the '70s you couldn't do Rock & Roll to any of the music being released. The result of this was that young people did not learn the Rock & Roll dance.

    But, there a still people out there going to Rock & Roll dances and enjoying the same music. Rock & Roll as a dance has not died - yet! It is a bit of a fossil though. It lives on with an ageing population who will eventually be too old and infirm to dance

    Let's consider Modern Jive in this context. We get young people coming along. But would they come if all the music was 70s disco and there was no modern chart music? I don't think so - although this is an assumption.

    What could happen if the music that was being released changed so much that you couldn't do MJ to it - let's say it all became a Rock and Roll beat. My guess is that we'd all still go dancing MJ to the same old music but we'd get far less young people coming along. MJ would be the dance of our generation and it would die with us - to be reborn in a different guise when the musical environment changed again.

  9. #29
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DianaS
    turf war
    aggressive marketing/promotional techniques
    Making your crowd feel they were a market rather than part of the entertainment
    Killing off the diversity of teaching styles
    venue owners or franchise holders acting more like gangsters than dancers
    Next?
    Ahhhhhhhh .... BRIGHTON

  10. #30
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Ahhhhhhhh .... BRIGHTON
    Ditto! The same thought as me.

    Although the Brighton scene has changed of late. The two main MJ nights are now Phil Ducketts Fridays in Hove with Viktor teaching and our Thursdays in Shoreham with Lisa Saw (current UK Leroc Open Champion) and me teaching. Phil and I get on just fine, we've been friends for years and co-operate fully. I even announce his dances and classes from the stage (when I remember ) The other, older, classes have either declined so much that you hear very little about them (and when you do it's along the lines of "went to X the other night, hardly anyone there, floor was empty by 10pm, won't go back" ) or they've started to major on ballroom/latin dancing and swing to the detriment of their MJ customers - which is a valuable lesson to us all*.

    * and cheaply learnt, as it was someone else paying the price

  11. #31
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Ahhhhhhhh .... BRIGHTON
    BrightNAM!

  12. #32
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    This is a fabulous thread. I agree with everone except MH - as usual MJ does not simply date from the 1980s. It wasn't born whole on a particular day. It evolved from a previous dance due to a change in the environment and that dance evolved from another, right back to the original dance that was an African tribal dance - and before that, who knows?
    With the possible exception of Argentinian Tango, no modern dance I can think of has clearcut origins - you should see the discussion about salsa

    MJ, as MJ, at least can be pinned down to Leroc / Ceroc in the early 80's, which is more precise than most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    The environment was the music. And it will probably be the music that kills MJ - but it will take a long time.
    Interesting point, and certainly sounds plausible.

    To me, it was the music, combined with the Ceroc business model, combined with a large group of young-ish urban people who wanted to dance but had zero training.

    Hmmm, it definitely makes sense to first ask "What made MJ successful", wish I'd thought of that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    What could happen if the music that was being released changed so much that you couldn't do MJ to it - let's say it all became a Rock and Roll beat.
    Or conversely, if it got slower - we'd all have to do West Coast Swing

    (Of course, if it got really slow, we could rumba to it )

  13. #33
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    This is a fabulous thread. I agree with everone except MH - as usual MJ does not simply date from the 1980s. It wasn't born whole on a particular day. It evolved from a previous dance due to a change in the environment and that dance evolved from another, right back to the original dance that was an African tribal dance - and before that, who knows? The environment was the music. And it will probably be the music that kills MJ - but it will take a long time.

    Consider the example of Rock & Roll. In the 1950s music and the dance fitted together nicely. People loved the Rock & Roll scene, they loved the music, they did the dance, met their husbands and wives, etc. During the '60s music changed and by the '70s you couldn't do Rock & Roll to any of the music being released. The result of this was that young people did not learn the Rock & Roll dance.

    But, there a still people out there going to Rock & Roll dances and enjoying the same music. Rock & Roll as a dance has not died - yet! It is a bit of a fossil though. It lives on with an ageing population who will eventually be too old and infirm to dance

    Let's consider Modern Jive in this context. We get young people coming along. But would they come if all the music was 70s disco and there was no modern chart music? I don't think so - although this is an assumption.

    What could happen if the music that was being released changed so much that you couldn't do MJ to it - let's say it all became a Rock and Roll beat. My guess is that we'd all still go dancing MJ to the same old music but we'd get far less young people coming along. MJ would be the dance of our generation and it would die with us - to be reborn in a different guise when the musical environment changed again.
    Couldnt put it better myself

    Its the only way I now know whats in the top 40 by going to ceroc and hear what the 'youngsters' here on the old 'wireless'

  14. #34
    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames

    Or conversely, if it got slower - we'd all have to do West Coast Swing
    <<*shudder*>>

  15. #35
    Registered User jiveknight's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Interesting...
    Seems mj is getting bigger and bigger just as partner dancing is in general.
    It is similar to when I was in the US a few years ago and modern "swing" was big. This was basically old swing but slower and taught at an easier gradient much like mj.
    It suddenly became huge and was all over TV and everywhere, then the "media" seemed to decide it was out of fashion and this killed off many (but not all) of the dance classes and freestyle events etc.

    It was not because it became so big or trendy or the hype that killed it but the fact that there was little organisation and the sudden dip made a lot of people/clubs give up or start fighting with each other to keep going.
    The ones who were better organised and controlled their own promotion are still going great (such as Washington DC - bigger every year) and in fact even took advantage of the hype.

    With mj the great thing is it is well organised, Ceroc has done something that the US dancers wanted to do.The fact that it is well orgainised and the communication between dancers all over the country will keep it going directed and under the control of the modern jiver.

    Who knows, it might become the national dance...

  16. #36
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    OK, I read an article in the Times today, regarding the resurgence of Ballroom Dancing as a popular pastime - and the current shortage of ballroom dancing teachers because fewer people wanted to learn to teach ballroom in the UK 10-20 years ago.

    It occurs to me (not for the first time) that most of a success of any new business venture is in the timing:
    - If Ceroc had started up in the 60s, everyone would have laughed at it - at most, it'd be a dance craze like the Mashed Potato. And there were still commonly lots of ballroom dances to go to at that point if people were interested.
    - In the 70's, it'd have been seen as terminally uncool (man), and would never have got off the ground.
    - In the 90's, it might have been ignored as a pale imitation of salsa.

    Only in the 1980's was there such a favourable set of conditions, with almost no competition from other partner dances, and with popular music of a speed and type which allowed simplistic partner dancing.

    But now, 20+ years later, we're seeing different partner dances gaining in popularity, and providing competition, and we're seeing a (possibly brief) rise in popularity of ballroom dancing as well.

    I think one of the things that could kill Ceroc is a dumb-ass short-term attitude by Ceroc franchisees, that "We're only here to get money off beginners - once they get beyond that level, they'll go on to salsa or whatever anyway" - as reportedly expressed occasionally.

    If other partner dances (salsa, AT, ballroom) reach a "critical mass" in terms of popular appeal, especially to the young, then it won't be such a selling point to tell people "yes, even you can partner dance", because the potential customers will know this already. And the inherent flaws of teaching the quick-and-dirty way will be more immediately obvious to more people at an earlier stage...

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I think one of the things that could kill Ceroc is a dumb-ass short-term attitude by Ceroc franchisees, that "We're only here to get money off beginners - once they get beyond that level, they'll go on to salsa or whatever anyway" - as reportedly expressed occasionally.
    A part of me says this is a good reason for us to stop supporting Ceroc and start going to independents (like me ), another part of me say we should continue to support Ceroc to keep our dance going and prove DJ wrong.

    I really do think Ceroc is all about beginners and cash and short-term gain - at least in the London area. From my own point of view I started classes to give me somewhere good to go that was nearer than Ealing. I'm taking a long-term view and recruiting people and retaining them - but it's taken a lot of money out of my pocket to do so. It would be so much more profitable to advertise like mad, get 20 people to come and try it for a few weeks - week after week after week after week ....

    .. although I'm not sure my soulder could take all the tugging a jerking
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 4th-December-2005 at 12:42 AM.

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    If other partner dances (salsa, AT, ballroom) reach a "critical mass" in terms of popular appeal, especially to the young, then it won't be such a selling point to tell people "yes, even you can partner dance", because the potential customers will know this already. And the inherent flaws of teaching the quick-and-dirty way will be more immediately obvious to more people at an earlier stage...
    Not to worry, the Sydney experience is such that Salsa is probably quite a bit bigger than Ceroc and has a broader base - many different operators insted of 2 main companies. This has not killed cerco, In fact it gives the opportunity for students to cross pollinate their styles. After all ppl who like dancing probably don't just stick to want style - they want to dance to what every muic they are listening to!

    AT is a lot smaller - but gaining popularity. the up and coming style appears to be Bachatta - which is played during salsa socials as well.

    There shouldn't be a problem for ceroc to co-exist or even improve with these other styles around. I think they would influence the evolution of ceroc -which i see is a good thing.

    To answer the question - what would kill MJ - Bird Flu if it becomes like the 1908 strain which can be transmitted easily from humnan to human - that'll be pretty much the end of any dance scene.

  19. #39
    Registered User Anna's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    I don't think it's a matter of WHAT could kill MJ.. but HOW...




    Who shall I assassinate.....

  20. #40
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I really do think Ceroc is all about beginners and cash and short-term gain - at least in the London area.
    You could be right - it may be impossible to turn the "beginner-oriented" model into a "cater for all stages" model. But if they don't, I think they'll have problems, simply because partner dancing in general is now more popular, more accessible, and less novel.

    In other words, competition forces you to raise your game, and unless MJ wants to be known as "the beginner's dance", Ceroc may need to improve accordingly. FWIW, I think Mike mostly realises this, but it's far from easy to get franchisees to think long-term.

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