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    What could kill MJ?

    From the "teaching / real dancing experience" thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    The Ceroc organisation may suffer in a depression, but all we need to MJ is a reasonably flat surface and some music.
    This got me wondering - what could change (socially, environmentally, technologically or otherwise) to kill of the MJ scene?

    I couldn't think of anything, but it sounded very much like an OCP (Outside Context Problem). I knew excessive reading of Excession would pay off someday

    Where:
    -----------------
    "An Outside Context Problem was the sort of thing most civilisations encountered just once, and which they tended to encounter rather in the same way a sentence encountered a full stop. The usual example given to illustrate an Outside Context Problem was imagining you were a tribe on a largish, fertile island; you'd tamed the land, invented the wheel or writing or whatever, the neighbours were cooperative or enslaved but at any rate peaceful and you were busy raising temples to yourself with all the excess productive capacity you had, you were in a position of near-absolute power and control which your hallowed ancestors could hardly have dreamed of and the whole situation was just running along nicely like a canoe on wet grass... when suddenly this bristling lump of iron appears sailless and trailing steam in the bay and these guys carrying long funny-looking sticks come ashore and announce you've just been discovered, you're all subjects of the Emperor now, he's keen on presents called tax and these bright-eyed holy men would like a word with your priests."
    -----------------

    (And, yes, it's a proper term - it must be, it has a Wikipedia entry )

    So, any thoughts on what could kill the MJ dance scene off?

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    From the same place:

    Quote Originally Posted by doc martin
    people who are still dancing afterwards will look back and say ... "Isn't it a shame all those lovely ballroom dances died out? They were so pretty, but just too inflexible to survive."
    All well and good, but MJ dates from the 1980s, while Waltz dates from the 1780s. We're a couple of centuries early to brag about how much more survivable MJ is than ballroom.

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    From the same place:

    All well and good, but MJ dates from the 1980s, while Waltz dates from the 1780s. We're a couple of centuries early to brag about how much more survivable MJ is than ballroom.
    And in a faster changing world the more recent a cultural phenomenon, the shorter it's life is likely to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    For example, taking what Lynn's saying, one could plausibly argue that the 1960s - 1980s disco / solo dancing era pretty much killed off most partner dancing, and that partner dancing had to re-start from scratch, without many people having a culture, background and training in that area - hence the only partner dances that would have a chance would be the easy-to-learn ones like MJ (and to an extent, salsa).
    That makes me think of the development of creole languages from pidgin in cultures where people from many cultural backgrounds with no common language have been thrown together, such as slave islands in the Carribean. It is amazing how a fully blown language can be developed in one generation. The pidgin would be the equivalent of Ceroc in it's first few years and what is now happening is the construction of the whole grammar of the dance language of Ceroc to create a dance creole.
    These creoles then develop their own richness and diversity, influencing the thinking of their culture and I would expect the same thing to happen to Ceroc. Creoles in their final form are no simpler than older, better established languages and capable of expressing as much subtlety. I think that many on this forum aspire to this.
    However, some languages die out. Often when brought into contact with another language used by a larger more prosperous group. Translated into the terms of DJs question, I can see a couple of scenarios arising from this. Ceroc could be bought by a bigger company, with different methods which would alienate the cerocers, leading to disenchantment, shrinkage and finally incorporation into some other dance. That doesn't mean MJ would disappear, just the ceroc version of it.
    The other possibility that occurs to me is fashion. As DJ said partner dancing pretty much disappeared from the 60s to 80s and, if it again gets perceived as an old peoples pastime the same could happen again. That might be the end of ceroc as a company. But trends seem to come around faster all the time, so I am sure that partner dancing would, at some point, make a comeback. Whether we would be here to see it I have no idea.
    Also, if we do manage to leave this planet and head off to the stars, as I would like to do, things could change a bit. What would be the consequences of attempting a catapult in zero g?

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    All well and good, but MJ dates from the 1980s, while Waltz dates from the 1780s. We're a couple of centuries early to brag about how much more survivable MJ is than ballroom.
    This is a fabulous thread. I agree with everone except MH - as usual MJ does not simply date from the 1980s. It wasn't born whole on a particular day. It evolved from a previous dance due to a change in the environment and that dance evolved from another, right back to the original dance that was an African tribal dance - and before that, who knows? The environment was the music. And it will probably be the music that kills MJ - but it will take a long time.

    Consider the example of Rock & Roll. In the 1950s music and the dance fitted together nicely. People loved the Rock & Roll scene, they loved the music, they did the dance, met their husbands and wives, etc. During the '60s music changed and by the '70s you couldn't do Rock & Roll to any of the music being released. The result of this was that young people did not learn the Rock & Roll dance.

    But, there a still people out there going to Rock & Roll dances and enjoying the same music. Rock & Roll as a dance has not died - yet! It is a bit of a fossil though. It lives on with an ageing population who will eventually be too old and infirm to dance

    Let's consider Modern Jive in this context. We get young people coming along. But would they come if all the music was 70s disco and there was no modern chart music? I don't think so - although this is an assumption.

    What could happen if the music that was being released changed so much that you couldn't do MJ to it - let's say it all became a Rock and Roll beat. My guess is that we'd all still go dancing MJ to the same old music but we'd get far less young people coming along. MJ would be the dance of our generation and it would die with us - to be reborn in a different guise when the musical environment changed again.

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    This is a fabulous thread. I agree with everone except MH - as usual MJ does not simply date from the 1980s. It wasn't born whole on a particular day. It evolved from a previous dance due to a change in the environment and that dance evolved from another, right back to the original dance that was an African tribal dance - and before that, who knows?
    With the possible exception of Argentinian Tango, no modern dance I can think of has clearcut origins - you should see the discussion about salsa

    MJ, as MJ, at least can be pinned down to Leroc / Ceroc in the early 80's, which is more precise than most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    The environment was the music. And it will probably be the music that kills MJ - but it will take a long time.
    Interesting point, and certainly sounds plausible.

    To me, it was the music, combined with the Ceroc business model, combined with a large group of young-ish urban people who wanted to dance but had zero training.

    Hmmm, it definitely makes sense to first ask "What made MJ successful", wish I'd thought of that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    What could happen if the music that was being released changed so much that you couldn't do MJ to it - let's say it all became a Rock and Roll beat.
    Or conversely, if it got slower - we'd all have to do West Coast Swing

    (Of course, if it got really slow, we could rumba to it )

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames

    Or conversely, if it got slower - we'd all have to do West Coast Swing
    <<*shudder*>>

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Interesting...
    Seems mj is getting bigger and bigger just as partner dancing is in general.
    It is similar to when I was in the US a few years ago and modern "swing" was big. This was basically old swing but slower and taught at an easier gradient much like mj.
    It suddenly became huge and was all over TV and everywhere, then the "media" seemed to decide it was out of fashion and this killed off many (but not all) of the dance classes and freestyle events etc.

    It was not because it became so big or trendy or the hype that killed it but the fact that there was little organisation and the sudden dip made a lot of people/clubs give up or start fighting with each other to keep going.
    The ones who were better organised and controlled their own promotion are still going great (such as Washington DC - bigger every year) and in fact even took advantage of the hype.

    With mj the great thing is it is well organised, Ceroc has done something that the US dancers wanted to do.The fact that it is well orgainised and the communication between dancers all over the country will keep it going directed and under the control of the modern jiver.

    Who knows, it might become the national dance...

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    This is a fabulous thread. I agree with everone except MH - as usual MJ does not simply date from the 1980s. It wasn't born whole on a particular day. It evolved from a previous dance due to a change in the environment and that dance evolved from another, right back to the original dance that was an African tribal dance - and before that, who knows? The environment was the music. And it will probably be the music that kills MJ - but it will take a long time.

    Consider the example of Rock & Roll. In the 1950s music and the dance fitted together nicely. People loved the Rock & Roll scene, they loved the music, they did the dance, met their husbands and wives, etc. During the '60s music changed and by the '70s you couldn't do Rock & Roll to any of the music being released. The result of this was that young people did not learn the Rock & Roll dance.

    But, there a still people out there going to Rock & Roll dances and enjoying the same music. Rock & Roll as a dance has not died - yet! It is a bit of a fossil though. It lives on with an ageing population who will eventually be too old and infirm to dance

    Let's consider Modern Jive in this context. We get young people coming along. But would they come if all the music was 70s disco and there was no modern chart music? I don't think so - although this is an assumption.

    What could happen if the music that was being released changed so much that you couldn't do MJ to it - let's say it all became a Rock and Roll beat. My guess is that we'd all still go dancing MJ to the same old music but we'd get far less young people coming along. MJ would be the dance of our generation and it would die with us - to be reborn in a different guise when the musical environment changed again.
    Couldnt put it better myself

    Its the only way I now know whats in the top 40 by going to ceroc and hear what the 'youngsters' here on the old 'wireless'

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    This is a fabulous thread. I agree with everone except MH - as usual MJ does not simply date from the 1980s. It wasn't born whole on a particular day. It evolved from a previous dance due to a change in the environment and that dance evolved from another, right back to the original dance that was an African tribal dance - and before that, who knows? The environment was the music. And it will probably be the music that kills MJ - but it will take a long time.

    Consider the example of Rock & Roll. In the 1950s music and the dance fitted together nicely. People loved the Rock & Roll scene, they loved the music, they did the dance, met their husbands and wives, etc. During the '60s music changed and by the '70s you couldn't do Rock & Roll to any of the music being released. The result of this was that young people did not learn the Rock & Roll dance.

    But, there a still people out there going to Rock & Roll dances and enjoying the same music. Rock & Roll as a dance has not died - yet! It is a bit of a fossil though. It lives on with an ageing population who will eventually be too old and infirm to dance
    Good post Andy but over the past year I have been mor & more involved in the R&R dance scene.
    It is still very busy in many areas, there are more R&R weekenders than MJ weekenders around at the moment and loads of live bands playing regular R&R gigs
    The age is on average 40+, but certain Rockabilly clubs do have a large following of younger dancers
    Will it die out as the dancers get older?
    well using that example Lindy dancers should be 80+ in age as this stemmed from the 30's!!

    All these dance forms will continue to be discovered by new generations

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Let's consider Modern Jive in this context. We get young people coming along. But would they come if all the music was 70s disco and there was no modern chart music? I don't think so - although this is an assumption.
    Yes they would (well if they were German Swiss or Russian!!
    There is a big following of Disco Fox in Germany, Switzerland & Russia + few other european countries, it is simmilar move pattern to MJ but with footwork, they do play many of our 'swing' favs providing the BPM is slow enough, but in the main it is all 70's disco
    We were at a club in Switzerland, it was really busy, but bizare as the 70's disco classics filled the dance floor all night

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    What could happen if the music that was being released changed so much that you couldn't do MJ to it - let's say it all became a Rock and Roll beat. My guess is that we'd all still go dancing MJ to the same old music but we'd get far less young people coming along. MJ would be the dance of our generation and it would die with us - to be reborn in a different guise when the musical environment changed again.
    No there will always be bands, muscians etc. providing music for us dancers, Colin James, Domino, Dr. Robert, Royal Crown Revue, James Hunter, Indigo Swing etc. are really popular in swing rooms & main dance halls but they do not play mainstream pop
    p

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    From the "teaching / real dancing experience" thread:

    This got me wondering - what could change (socially, environmentally, technologically or otherwise) to kill of the MJ scene?
    A nearby gamma ray burster? Bird flu epidemic? Megatsunami? Of course, as you wander the urban wasteland, fighting off cannibal hordes while clutching a tin of spaghetti hoops and searching for a can-opener, the lack of MJ venues might not be top on your list of worries...

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Where:
    -----------------
    "An Outside Context Problem was the sort of thing most civilisations encountered just once, and which they tended to encounter rather in the same way a sentence encountered a full stop. The usual example given to illustrate an Outside Context Problem was imagining you were a tribe on a largish, fertile island; you'd tamed the land, invented the wheel or writing or whatever, the neighbours were cooperative or enslaved but at any rate peaceful and you were busy raising temples to yourself with all the excess productive capacity you had, you were in a position of near-absolute power and control which your hallowed ancestors could hardly have dreamed of and the whole situation was just running along nicely like a canoe on wet grass... when suddenly this bristling lump of iron appears sailless and trailing steam in the bay and these guys carrying long funny-looking sticks come ashore and announce you've just been discovered, you're all subjects of the Emperor now, he's keen on presents called tax and these bright-eyed holy men would like a word with your priests."
    -----------------
    Sounds like the perfect setting for the development of a New Religious Movement - for example the Cargo Cults (thought things weren't that peaceful between neighbouring groups where the people thought that all the 'goods' ie cargo, had really been sent from the gods for them and had been intecepted by these strangers. They built runways for the planes and drilled with wooden guns...)

    See, this isn't me being on the forum wasting time, this is academic work.

    And I think Bruce's programme on Sunday showed that really dancing goes in cycles - 'new' dances are really variations on old ones, changed somehow to be relevant.

    (Hmm back to NRMs - 'revitalisation' movements to help restore the belief systems that existed prior to the dramatic cultural change.)

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    All well and good, but MJ dates from the 1980s, while Waltz dates from the 1780s. We're a couple of centuries early to brag about how much more survivable MJ is than ballroom.
    Absolutely (it's like the Mao quote about the effects of the French Revolution - it's too soon to tell.)

    But I just wondered whether one could theorise that the MJ phenomen- fern- craze, is a short-term thing (for sufficient values of "short") and will soon die out, possibly to be replaced by the traditional ballroom favourites.

    For example, taking what Lynn's saying, one could plausibly argue that the 1960s - 1980s disco / solo dancing era pretty much killed off most partner dancing, and that partner dancing had to re-start from scratch, without many people having a culture, background and training in that area - hence the only partner dances that would have a chance would be the easy-to-learn ones like MJ (and to an extent, salsa).

    You could then also say that, once enough people in general had been "re-trained" to "proper dance" ( ), the appeal of MJ would fade and people would look for other dance styles, like, oh, I dunno, ballroom, tango, WCS, etc., just to pick some examples out of the hat

    In that case, would MJ survive?

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    You could then also say that, once enough people in general had been "re-trained" to "proper dance" ( ), the appeal of MJ would fade and people would look for other dance styles, like, oh, I dunno, ballroom, tango, WCS, etc., just to pick some examples out of the hat

    In that case, would MJ survive?
    I don't think you would ever reach that level of so many people dancing (in a Western culture) - therefore an 'entry level' dance would still be needed - whether that would be MJ is the question I think. MJ currently is great in that role. And not just in the 'no footwork so easier to learn' way. I had been wanting to learn to dance for years before I came across MJ. I thought I needed to find a dance partner first and sign up for a regular course - and I would need to for ballroom (locally anyway). So in many ways its a very accessible dance.

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    I don't think you would ever reach that level of so many people dancing (in a Western culture)
    I'm not so sure. We had such a culture up until the 1950's - we've anecdotal evidence from people on this forum about what it was like. Many schools did (and do) teach partner dancing - I only wish mine had, instead of some silly folk dancing nonsense.

    In the long run, it may turn out that "dancing solo" was the aberration, and that partner dancing is much more permanent as a cultural phenomenon (whew, managed to spell it this time).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    - therefore an 'entry level' dance would still be needed
    As an entry-level dance, I agree - but on the other hand, if everyone learnt partner dancing at school (which is under no obligation to make it easy or fun for you to learn), then there's less need for people to become re-acquainted with partner dancing at an entry level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    I had been wanting to learn to dance for years before I came across MJ. I thought I needed to find a dance partner first and sign up for a regular course - and I would need to for ballroom (locally anyway). So in many ways its a very accessible dance.
    I totally agree, and I'm the same. I had been (in a desultory fashion) doing some partner dancing (ballroom) before I found Ceroc. I knew I wanted to dance, but I also knew ballroom wasn't quite right for me. MJ was, and still is.

    The key and revolutionary concepts in MJ, to me, aren't the dance, it's the scene - the concepts such as "you can and should ask anyone to dance", "swap partners rapidly whilst learning" and "women ask men to dance" are almost unique to MJ. I think these will survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I can handle the urban wasteland. I could defend myself against the cannibals. I could even work out a way to get into a tin of spagetti hoops and use the empty tin to form a primitive spear-head. But no dancing?!? That just sends shivers down my spine.
    God yes. Nightmare...

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I'm not so sure. We had such a culture up until the 1950's - we've anecdotal evidence from people on this forum about what it was like. Many schools did (and do) teach partner dancing - I only wish mine had, instead of some silly folk dancing nonsense.

    In the long run, it may turn out that "dancing solo" was the aberration, and that partner dancing is much more permanent as a cultural phenomenon (whew, managed to spell it this time).
    Now I think about it I remember great aunts talking about going out dancing, (one met her husband at a dance). I suppose because I was brought up in the 70s and 80s its harder to imagine partner dancing as being a thing right across society.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    The key and revolutionary concepts in MJ, to me, aren't the dance, it's the scene - the concepts such as "you can and should ask anyone to dance", "swap partners rapidly whilst learning" and "women ask men to dance" are almost unique to MJ. I think these will survive.
    And the fact that dancers are friendly folk - MJ especially so. The 'scene' of mixing and not just going along with 'your' dance partner has probably helped to contribute to this. I would quite happily go along to an MJ evening where I knew no-one - and know that I would find people to dance with. Wheras I went to a ballroom social night once with friends - and only got to dance with them, and find much the same at the few salsa social nights I have been to.

    Long may the friendly environment of MJ continue!

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    .

    In the long run, it may turn out that "dancing solo" was the aberration, and that partner dancing is much more permanent as a cultural phenomenon (whew, managed to spell it this time).
    ...


    David I do believe you are right
    In the larger context of the history of dancing,in western society, solo dancing only evolved in the late fifties(?), and fifty-sixty years is not much really

    ..........waits for some dance history anorak to wikipaedia him down in flames............

    Partner dancing MUST be on the increase - I mean, apart from the evidence of our own experience in the MJ & salsa scene,who would have thought we'd see a THIRD series of SCD in a primetime saturday evening slot?

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    If MJ really does look like it is attracting the disco crowd the disco managers may well promote blues as a more space efficient partner dance. I do not see it happening. It is difficult to see MJ being dumbed down, or a more complex dance superceding it. What could happen is that it splits into sub-species - Latin Jive, Rockabilly Jive, Tango Jive, blues Jive etc. Since any of these variants is capable of evolving back to the current form MJ could be around for a long time.

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    If MJ really does look like it is attracting the disco crowd the disco managers may well promote blues as a more space efficient partner dance. I do not see it happening. It is difficult to see MJ being dumbed down, or a more complex dance superceding it. What could happen is that it splits into sub-species - Latin Jive, Rockabilly Jive, Tango Jive, blues Jive etc. Since any of these variants is capable of evolving back to the current form MJ could be around for a long time.

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    So, any thoughts on what could kill the MJ dance scene off?
    a catastrophic event: How about mass TV coverage?
    Everyone sees it as the next "big thing": ballroom teachers and traditional dance teachers decide to diversify and show how they think it should be done: Rules and competitions swamp the 'social' dancers and it becomes "too technical": attendance drops and a 'new' dance evolves from the ashes that goes back to the loose and free style of dancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Of course, as you wander the urban wasteland, fighting off cannibal hordes while clutching a tin of spaghetti hoops and searching for a can-opener, the lack of MJ venues might not be top on your list of worries...
    I can handle the urban wasteland. I could defend myself against the cannibals. I could even work out a way to get into a tin of spagetti hoops and use the empty tin to form a primitive spear-head. But no dancing?!? That just sends shivers down my spine.

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    Re: What could kill MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I couldn't think of anything, but it sounded very much like an OCP (Outside Context Problem). I knew excessive reading of Excession would pay off someday
    Is that related to SEP ?

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