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Thread: How to get a look in ??

  1. #141
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    BTW has anyone seen the calendar that Beyton created the photos of some of our dancers
    No, although I love to. Has anyone got any details about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Here's another possible answer: organise a freestyle, perhaps with a 40s theme or something, in which women are forbidden to ask men to dance.
    Now that's a VERY scary thought



    Quote Originally Posted by Lily
    If a guy chooses to dance with one partner all night, then that is clearly his prerogative. If, however, he is asked for a second or even a third dance by a persistent woman who did the asking in the first place and he is (like most people) too nice to refuse, then I do not consider that a real choice. Neither do the many men who have told me this themselves.
    I wholeheartedly agree with this

    It is the reluctance to jump on a man within a nano-second of him finishing a dance with another woman, a reluctance to grab a man who has been dancing non-stop for 10 tracks, a reluctance to drag a man onto the floor when he is clearly in need of a rest/drink/wipe-down, a reluctance to 'hog' the men ie. asking for 2-3 dances in a row, 3-4 times in one night, a reluctance to 'stalk' men
    And this.... I think is basic common curtesy!

    I'm going to break the rules here and say my bit on behalf on the men

    ...I think the good male dancers have a big price to pay for being 'good,' as everyone wants a piece of them and I can well believe that although a boost to their ego, they must at times feel out of control.

    The choice to shape their evenings and 'choose' whom they dance with, is taken away from them. If they sit a few tracks out, to chat or take a breather, they're invariably going to upset 'someone,' and if they choose to dance 3 or 4 tracks with the same woman, the same again.

    I've been in the situation loads of times where, i've had a lovely (and know it's probably, the best I'm going to get that night) dance with a guy but I've been conscious that there will be many other women waiting and a fair few of them 'better' than me, so I bow out gracefully as it would be neither fair on 'them' or 'him'

    Well done Minnie, good thread!
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

  2. #142
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by LilyB
    It is the reluctance to jump on a man within a nano-second of him finishing a dance with another woman, a reluctance to grab a man who has been dancing non-stop for 10 tracks, a reluctance to drag a man onto the floor when he is clearly in need of a rest/drink/wipe-down, a reluctance to 'hog' the men ie. asking for 2-3 dances in a row, 3-4 times in one night, a reluctance to 'stalk' men - such reluctance being our downfall . I presume SpinDr's suggestion of "working the room" is to do precisely the above.
    It seems that there are a number of different interpretations to "working the floor/room"! - I have always seen it as just making sure I wander round the room and ask guys (instead of sitting away from the edge of the floor waiting). I agree with Lory - the above reluctance just seems like courtesy to me (certainly waiting on a few occasions for Saturday's intended victim to wipe-down/thank his partner/look in my direction so I could 'catch him' meant that I never got the dance he'd promised me - not his fault )

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr
    But frankly, unless a followers in constant demand on the dance floor -- no leader who really, really wants to dance with them will miss a chance to ask (modulo shyness, etc.).
    - plus, as has been said earlier, if a woman is confident enough to ask a guy for 3 or 4 dances in a row (hell, I'm not even confident enough to ask for a second yet, even if I want one!) then surely it won't be *that* crushing to her ego for a guy to say very nicely to her that he's enjoyed their dances but needs to go and dance with "x" now.

  3. #143
    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    ...I think the good male dancers have a big price to pay for being 'good,' as everyone wants a piece of them and I can well believe that although a boost to their ego, they must at times feel out of control.
    Hmmm, everyone let's try a thought experiment -- *YOU* have danced with someone and didn't enjoy it / have had enough -- do you think you could extricate yourself gracefully? Especially if you're "familiar" with the scene.

    D'you mind if I have a drink / change of shirt / ...
    I've just seen XXXX and I've promised her a dance ...

    I don't see why "good male dancers" should have any more problems than any other leader / follower (*)

    SpinDr.

    (*) Huge caveat -- went to a local event once, and surprise surprise in wanders NNNNNN (and date/partner/whatever) and their friends, etc. It was obvious that they'd just come out for a nice social night out away from the buzzing metropolis. Then, just before the DJ starts playing his set, he announces "Ladies, I see NNNNN's here tonight -- he's a really good dancer -- you should really go and grab him for a dance". My sympathy went out to them all at that point.

  4. #144
    Registered User Piglet's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    You would both up top on my favourite dancers list (...If I had one ); you both like to 'play' with the music and use it to it's full. I would be surprised if the two of you don't "Click".

    (Would make an...interesting... double trouble coupling. Perhaps if I'm feeling brave )
    You've just made my day - to be considered in the same "ceroc box" as Danielle is a compliment indeed! I'd double trouble with you any day and if the other girl was Danielle, then I'm sure I could learn a lot from her
    Quote Originally Posted by Drathzel
    I am looking forward to the dances Piglet and the opertunity to double trouble.... i can lead that too if anyone fancies a challenge !
    Wow! This BFG is going to be more fab than last years! I'm smiling already
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I can't remember the last time I had more than two dances consecutively with someone. For me at least, 1 dance seems to be the norm; 2 dances is rare, and 3 dances is unheard of - I'd certainly be very surprised if someone wanted 3 consecutive dances with me.
    I've often had 2 dances consecutively and don't see anything wrong with this - especially if its a busy night and its going to be difficult getting your paws (or in my case - trotters) on the lovely guy again - I even have 2 consecutive dancers with guys I don't particularly want to have 2 consec dances with. BUT, I find, if I know I don't want to have another dance with a guy, then I just get in with my thank you's at the end of the dance before he can ask again (and that can be at the end of the first one ) - there's a lot of body language that can accompany those 2 words e.g. letting go of hands, turning away slightly - it's not hard and it works! (Mind you maybe this tip should be on a different thread?)

    I once had 5 consecutive dancers with a guy - he'd been away ages and I do love dancing with him - but 5!!!!! He looked disappointed when I said my "Thank you" at the end of the 5th, and I can't fathom why.... but we do have good fun when we dance with each other. I suppose you can sometimes get too much of a good thing, huh?

  5. #145
    Registered User marty_baby's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Hiya All,


    Quote Originally Posted by LilyB

    SpinDr's suggestion that if you want a dance, ask - "work the room" etc etc. is a typical reflection of someone who has failed to notice this problem that Minnie M and I have been referring to, myself at great length.

    I totally agree with this. To be frank, I'm horrified that Lily is even considering giving up freestyles...

    When a true lady of Lily's stature pops her head above the parapet and gives her opinion on a hot topic like this, I believe for any replies, her opinion and post should be fully and carefully considered, and any replies carefully reflected on and proof read before they are posted.

    This forum is a great place to converse with the great dancers we have in the country. It shouldn't be treated as a convenient place to nick pick and to throw in superficial, blantantly unthought out, antagonistic replies.

    For Lily to post at 2am in the morning, means she feels really strongly about this. A little bit more respect for her and her opinions would be really nice here guys.



    Quote Originally Posted by LilyB

    It is not a simple straight-forward reluctance to ask a man for a dance that is our problem. It is the reluctance to jump on a man within a nano-second of him finishing a dance with another woman, a reluctance to grab a man who has been dancing non-stop for 10 tracks, a reluctance to drag a man onto the floor when he is clearly in need of a rest/drink/wipe-down, a reluctance to 'hog' the men ie. asking for 2-3 dances in a row, 3-4 times in one night, a reluctance to 'stalk' men - such reluctance being our downfall . I presume SpinDr's suggestion of "working the room" is to do precisely the above.

    SpinDr has suggested us women ".. wander around to find someone sat out ..etc.etc.". Wonder why he thinks it is OK for the women to do this but not the men (note the first sentence of his post)? In any event, has he noticed how many men there are "sat out" at each freestyle night? Didn't think so.

    I believe the interpretation of this, from a bloke's point of view is:

    1. Lily is highlighting the plight of the less pushy females out there. If someone like Lily has a problem getting dances with guys who can "dance", then imagine how all the other girls must be feeling!

    2. How do we fix this?
    * I firmly do not consider it appropriate to say to Ladies "you must dive into the bull pit with the pushy females" - not realistic, and simply not going to happen with most nice women out there.
    * I haven't had the time to think of possible answers to this. I'll post some if they come to me and when I have the time.

    * I believe Lily is highlighting the problems very well on this forum though. I suggest constructive, considered, posts on this issue would be good, as opposed to degenerating it down into personal attacks on people who are willing to open up on this forum.


    Best wishes to all
    Martin

    (Oh man - I'm expecting a flurry of hate mail from this! But I felt I had to say something!)

  6. #146
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    IMO, this has generally been a very constructive and thoughtful thread. But marty_baby, I feel quite strongly that your post is actually the most inflammatory one on this thread so far.

    I'm sure everyone would absolutely agree that Lily is always worth listening to and has indeed summarised the issues fantastically well. However, I can't see how any of the posts on here, even if disagreeing, could be seen as attacks on her personally.

  7. #147
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_baby
    I believe for any replies, her opinion and post should be fully and carefully considered, and any replies carefully reflected on and proof read before they are posted.
    Hmmm. I'd say that should apply to any posts in a public forum. (Of course, that doesn't mean I take due care and attention - do what I say, not what I do)

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_baby
    This forum ... shouldn't be treated as a convenient place to nick pick and to throw in superficial, blantantly unthought out, antagonistic replies.
    Yeah? You and whose army, huh?

    Sorry, couldn't resist. The forum is what it is - a community of opinionated yet generally-courteous individuals, many of whom are involved in the MJ world as teachers or organisers. How we use it is up to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_baby
    For Lily to post at 2am in the morning, means she feels really strongly about this. A little bit more respect for her and her opinions would be really nice here guys.
    I've not seen any disrespect - disagreement, maybe, but so what? The whole point of the Forum to me is about the value of civilised debate and discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_baby
    1. Lily is highlighting the plight of the less pushy females out there.
    To be acurate, Lily is highlighting a problem she has experienced, which some other women have agreed with to a degree. Expanding it to "this is a general problem for an entire group of people everyhwhere" is a stretch too far for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_baby
    If someone like Lily has a problem getting dances with guys who can "dance", then imagine how all the other girls must be feeling!
    Yeah... but Lily doesn't ask guys to dance. I'd expect any female dancer who didn't ask guys to dance, will not get as many dances as female dancers who did ask guys to dance.

    Not exactly a stunning revelation, really, and she is (in many ways) an exceptional case.

    Having said that, there's some interesting feedback from women who do ask guys, and who do get that same sort of problem to a degree. So I agree it's a good topic for debate ( Minnie).

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_baby
    * I firmly do not consider it appropriate to say to Ladies "you must dive into the bull pit with the pushy females" - not realistic, and simply not going to happen with most nice women out there.
    It depends. Is the "problem" with the women who don't ask, or the women who do ask? And why assume that the ones who don't ask are "nice" and the others are evil pushy beyatches?

    Are we suggesting that it'd be better for women never to ask men? If so, that sounds a bit like the salsa scene (at least in Central London) to me - and it's no different there, lots of women still sit out lots of dances.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_baby
    * I believe Lily is highlighting the problems very well on this forum though.
    I think Minnie highlighted it as a "general situation" better, as I believe she's a bit more representative in attitude of the average female MJ dancer. But they're both lovely

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_baby
    I suggest constructive, considered, posts on this issue would be good, as opposed to degenerating it down into personal attacks on people who are willing to open up on this forum.
    I'm still lost on this - are you talking about me? SpinDr? Or what?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_baby
    (Oh man - I'm expecting a flurry of hate mail from this! But I felt I had to say something!)
    Nah, you want hate mail, you'll have to work harder than that.

    I know - say you believe in astrology, that'll do it for me....

  8. #148
    Registered User marty_baby's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Hiya LMC,

    ....hhhmmmm..... I re-read all the posts twice and carefully considered my reply.... Maybe I should have chopped out the qoutes a bit more etc....

    Forgive me all, if I have come across a bit abrasive - bit of a red mist situation when I read my goddess's posts being ....er.... "discussed?" ...is that the term??? !!!!!

    Again - apologies to any upset parties!

    I hope the positives from my post will be considered in the correct light though!

    Best wishes and good Karma's to all.
    Martin

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_baby
    Forgive me all, if I have come across a bit abrasive - bit of a red mist situation when I read my goddess's posts being ....er.... "discussed?" ...is that the term??? !!!!!
    Lily is a goddess - and DavidB is a god as well. But I'm still an atheist - I'm sure Lily would agree that anything she says is just as much up for debate as the rubbish that DJ posts Of course, personal attacks are not acceptable

    Again - apologies to any upset parties!
    Not upset, just outspoken

    I hope the positives from my post will be considered in the correct light though!
    The point you made about Lily's feeling strongly enough about this issue to post at an ungodly hour was a good one.

  10. #150
    Registered User Icey's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by drathzel
    After reading this i am now worried if i am pushy and inconsiderate!
    I've read this thread from start to finish and I'm now very concerned that I'm considered "pushy" as I sometimes if I'm very lucky get periods where I don't come off the floor for several tracks.

    When a track starts and I'm on the sidelines I will usually wait until asked and if I'm not then I'll check out the guys that are on the sidelines with me and ask one of them. There are also times where I'm grabbed by guys as I'm making my way off the dance floor. There are also other situations when I've not been able to get a dance for love nor money for quite a while.

    I certainly wouldn't dream of stalking down the "dance gods" as I'm simply not good enough and I don't want to make a prat of myself. I like to keep to my own beginner level.

    There seems to me to be a fine line between being assertive at getting a dance and being downright pushy. The problem is if I'm assertive about getting a dance I'm pushy, if I'm not assertive I sometimes won't get a dance for quite a number of tracks. Which do I do? I want to dance but I don't want to be pushy.

  11. #151
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames

    .

    Suggestion: for the next ticket-only event, especially an even-numbers event, how about introducing a "dance-card" half-hour?
    I don't think it would be necessary if the numbers were even. The problem of women needing to be excessively assertive about grabbing partners is caused mainly by a short supply of men.
    Well done to those organisers who have tried to find ways to even things up a little. On occasions when there is a big imbalance, perhaps it could be suggested that ladies ration themselves to dancing perhaps 70% of the tracks. With a bit of luck, they might find that 30% of the tracks were not to their taste, anyway.

    I don't think dance cards would work at all in large, non-ticket freestyles, it would be a scrum and loads of good dancing time could be wasted. But they might be fun in a small, ticket-only gathering, where many people were acquainted with each other anyway.

    I absolutely don't want to see a return to "chivalrous values". I think it's right that women & men should be equally free to ask and I think, especially, that women should be free to politely ask whoever they like without hard and judgemental adjectives like "pushy" and "aggressive" being used on them. It is not pushy to ask someone for a dance, it is a straightforward & assertive action and men are equally free to respond by saying "yes" or "no".

    Given that there are usually more women than men at a freestyle I think that women HAVE to take personal responsibility for how much dancing they do. Realistically, if a lady refuses ever to ask a man to dance then it could be said that it has been her choice if she spends 80% of the evening sitting at the side of the room.

    I can understand that some women might be reluctant to act in a way that they perceive as pushy & aggressive - but I personally don't think that working the hall, i.e. walking around the room, seeing who is available to dance, and asking them if they are not already dancing, would come under that heading.

    I do think that it is a bit inconsiderate to pounce on someone who is already hot, sweaty and thirsty - but on the occasions that it's happened to me I just grab a quick swig of water and get on with the job. It is, after all a form of compliment that men generally receive far more often than women in MJ.

    I completely agree with the point that if you want to be asked to dance more often, improve your dancing skills (Although this clearly is not a solution for LilyB). Sadly, one of the ways to do this is by asking good leaders to dance. If I hadn't taken the decision to do this myself, I hardly think they would have beaten a path to my door. This seems to me a catch-22 situation. If you never ask these people to dance, you'll never become good enough to dance with them. I'd only ever expect one dance every so often from an Alpha-leader, ( not my phrase, someone's already used it) is that too much to ask?
    Even Epsilon semi-morons are human too.

  12. #152
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    I have read this thread with interest (from Sydney where [as far as I know] we don't have this problem).

    Reading the thread, I've begun to think about what my own behaviour is. And I have noticed this:
    • I've almost always danced 2 songs with every partner (I think that's still standard here, but it seems to be changing).
    • I don't go onto the dance floor without a partner (although that may be a partner who was already on the floor and asked [or agreed] by eye contact)
    • I don't ask for a dance until I leave the dance floor (although I might follow someone off the floor and ask the moment they cross the boundary).

    However, if someone asked me to dance while I was still on the floor I would most likely accept. But if I wanted a break to drink or change shirt, I would have no qualms in saying so -- but that girl would still get the first dance after I had my break.

    I'm not in the alpha dancer category, but I know from experiment I'm a desirable partner. (One night I was very tired, so I decided to only dance with people who asked me, never to ask anyone for a dance. I don't think I danced any less than usual that night.)

  13. #153
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp
    I have read this thread with interest (from Sydney where [as far as I know] we don't have this problem).
    Could this be because you lot are straightforward, fair dinkum Aussies, and we are paranoid, needy, whinging Poms?


  14. #154
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Could this be because you lot are straightforward, fair dinkum Aussies, and we are paranoid, needy, whinging Poms?

    That's certainly the most likely explanation.

    It could also be related to number of dancers (population) -- at a typical dance party I have no trouble dancing with all those I particularly want to plus a few strangers.

    It could also relate to the fact that at half the venues I regularly attend there are more guys than girls. Tonight I sat out the beginners class because there were more guys sitting out than there were girls on the dance floor.


    On a related matter, how are you all coping with Nessa. She's not shy about asking for a dance, nor about asking for (or simply taking) the lead.

    Tim

  15. #155
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp
    It could also relate to the fact that at half the venues I regularly attend there are more guys than girls. Tonight I sat out the beginners class because there were more guys sitting out than there were girls on the dance floor.
    Jeez...

    (frantically tries to get back on to the travel site to cancel that one-way ticket....)

  16. #156
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Jeez...

    (frantically tries to get back on to the travel site to cancel that one-way ticket....)
    Advertise it on here Chris - you'll probably be able to flog it for a vast profit...

    What jivecat said

  17. #157
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Jeez...

    (frantically tries to get back on to the travel site to cancel that one-way ticket....)
    Relax. this was an unusual night. usually numbers are fairly even (but more often 1 or 2 guys over, rarely 1 or2 girls over).

    And I've heard that other venues have more women.

  18. #158
    Registered User Msfab's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Could this be because you lot are straightforward, fair dinkum Aussies, and we are paranoid, needy, whinging Poms?

    Speak for yourself ChrisA!

  19. #159
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Msfab
    Speak for yourself ChrisA!
    Nope, I'm just whinging.

    I leave paranoid and needy to others

  20. #160
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: How to get a look in ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Jeez...

    (frantically tries to get back on to the travel site to cancel that one-way ticket....)
    Carry your bags, sir?

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