All,
I received a phone call from an old friend with whom I had not spoken for a long time (OK my fault too) and we had a long and laughter-strewn phone conversation.
Then the pitch.
I was invited to a meeting of her "Landmark Forum group" Note NOT Landmark Trust . This was to be a 3-hour session at her house, or at the flat of another one of the group members. Now, I have heard a little of The Landmark Forum, and its techniques, from two people who attended their sessions. All I remember of their description is of people entering a hotel room on a Friday evening, being given, say, 15 minutes to make a free choice to leave but after that point they were expected to stay. Then I'm not sure whether the doors of the room were actually locked. I believe "attendants" were placed at the doors who "persuade" people not to leave the session. I feel people would not leave at that point because they would be intrigued to find what Landmark was all about after having expended some effort to get to the event.
Attendees at the Landmark Forum event have to make a public commitment to attend the following two days of the session. If they arrive late they are asked to justify why they were late in front of every one. It always come down to the same thing - if you were late because of a traffic or transport problem, then you were not taking responsibility for leaving home early enough.
Landmark Forum seems to peddle no Gods / gods / vibrations / whatever; it seems to be all about personal empowerment, personal responsibility and how to move from where you are to that new place. The promise seems to be if you follow the Landmark Way you will build more fulfilling relationships and become more affluent.
I believe Landmark Forum's techniques involve you identifying, examining, confronting and overcoming your greatest insecurities and buried pain. I believe there is an amount of public confessional in the session. People are not allowed to step away from the spot-light until the session leader feels the person has really "accepted" their "issue". I have heard that in the session people are reduced to tears in public where they reveal the most intimate things about themselves and their vulnerability. Maybe we have to confront the barriers we erect for ourselves. Sometime tears are the only healing ointment there is. But in a public space? Why?
Attendees who complete the event are asked to commit to bring one new person to an introductory event. Is Landmark and its techniques any different to some churches exhorting Christians to envagelise in the manner of St. Paul?
The Landmark Forum web site shows images of people who are attractive and seemlingly happy as in a Coca-Cola or Microsoft advert. This immediately brings up my "mistrust" antennae. Landmark Forum also talks about "programmes of study" and "graduates" who have attended their courses. I have been exposed to too many business training programmes that abuse the label "graduate" to be impressed by such language.
Does anyone have experience of Landmark Forum? There must be someone on the Forum who has attended their events or is an active member. They seem to attract highly intelligent and rational people to their events. Was I closed and unnecessarily fearful about not accepting this invitation from my friend? Have I misrepresented Landmark Forum and they are in fact a force for good in the world from whom we could all learn a lot? I hope I am not becoming cynical and overly judgemental. I think it will be interesting to see if my friend accepts my alternative offer to meet one-to-one to discuss Landmark Forum.
Now I am all for people taking responsibility for themselves and their actions - that is a lesson I learned hard and late. The realisation of my mistakes acts as a spur to me - I do not want to lose it. However, IMO, life is not all about myself and how I relate to it - it includes (in fact only has any meaning for me) in the relationships I have with other people who freely choose to spend time with me. That is my measure of self-worth and my reward. I wonder what Landmark's position is on such things?
Clive
I've heard good things about this from a couple of people now. It appears to combine cult-like (used non-perjoratively) marketing techniques with potentially valuable self-examination. I think it is quite expensive though.
As for why the public confessional: support groups like Alcoholics Anonymous use this kind of structure don't they? "Hello, my name's' El Salsero Gringo, and I'm a compulsive Forum poster."
Never heard of it before. Some googling leaves me feeling it's not a "true" cult, but that it uses some of the techniques of such cults. Reading descriptions, I got quite a strong feeling it was of the "break people down to remould them" school of thought, which certainly raises my hackles.
Lots of accounts here.
The common features of real cults, as far as I've read, is that they encourage you to cut off communication and relationships outside of the cult, and that they take away your own sense of certainty and responsibilty for and about yourself. This seems to do the opposite in both senses. Perhaps Lynn could tell us more?Originally Posted by David Franklin
A friend of mine did this a few years ago and managed to "sell" the two -hour introductory session to me. So off we went. It felt like a religious cult in some respects - lots of inspirational stories, blah blah blah. However, it is entirely non-denominational and their program made sound sense. But I couldn't see any significant difference between Landmark techniques and NLP and I was severely UNIMPRESSED with the hard sell on the evening - they were very emphatic about "sign up now" and were insistent on collecting contact details on the way out. No refreshments, not even water - and we were in there nearly 4 hours
On top of that, within 24 hours I had a phone call with the woman trying to "guilt" me into going on a weekend by asking questions like "Don't you want to make your life better then?" - me: "of course, but I'm doing fine on my own at the moment, making lots of changes, etc, why should I pay 300 quid for yours?". Her: "what don't you like about the program?" Me: "it looks fine, but I ain't buying it"... after about five minutes of stuck record I had to get a bit cross...
I also don't really believe that you can change your ways of years in one weekend. "Top-up" sessions would be required, presumably at further cost.
You don't get owt for nowt. Landmark sells itself as an altruistic organisation that just wants to make people confident and happy. But the extremely hard sell left a very bad taste in my mouth. There were at least 3-400 people at the intro session I went to, and they hold the intros regularly. The sessions work on 'graduates' bringing a friend. Which raised two questions for me: if Landmark is so fantastic, how come it's not better known? And if it's so fantastic, how come they didn't have to hire Wembley stadium because EVERY graduate wanted to bring a friend? I suspect that as with many self-improvement "courses" it works for a few, and the majority just slip back into old ways of life.
Clive, I would say go to one of the free intro sessions if you like. But stay grounded, don't get carried away by the feel-good atmosphere the charismatic presenters can and will create. Resist the hard-sell - they try to catch people "on impulse". Keep open-minded - Landmark is not for me, but that doesn't mean it isn't for anybody (although I would say look at NLP, you can buy a book and do that yourself, MUCH cheaper).
Who runs it? Do they file accounts? Website? Book?
If someone is trying to alter minds, and if their reason was purely altruistic they would be open to examination and discussion.
It sounds like a scientology type organisation, and I would avoid it.
I have one friend who went on one of these, and claimed it changed his life. He tried hard to persuade me to go on one (partly because he really thought it was good, partly because they get you to commit to bring new people in) but I am deeply suspicious of it.
I have another friend who went, and hated the whole thing.
Regarding public confessional and the comparison against Alcoholics Anonymous I think there is a significant difference to Landmark Forum's use of the public confession.
The purpose of the AA or Narcanon public confession is to get the person to accept he/she is dependent by admitting whatever-it-is in front of other people. What I have been told by two people whose siblings were alcoholics is that they are mightily adept at deceiving themselves and others about the seriousness of their condition.
The method of AA confessional is not to harangue or humiliate people but to accept them as they are and support them in their desperate desire to heal themselves.
I went to Findhorn once - very NewAgey - and I want to return. They have a method whereby at some point in the day everyone "shares" in the group. The sharing can be about anything - something you experienced during the day, some insight you have gained about your past and your feelings towards it as a result of being at Findhorn
The rules of sharing are:
1. Complete confidentiality about what is said in the room - nothing goes outside
2. You can express your feelings positive or negative about anyone in the group
3. There is no interruption when anyone is speaking - and they can speak for as long as they like until they signalled they have said what they wish
4. Everyone is asked to listen hard to what the person says so you train in really listening to what another person is saying (can you imagine how hard that was for me?)
5. No one comments on or offers advice or judges what the person has said.
Exactly.
My fear is that although I appear rational and grounded I am a very emotion driven person and easily swayed by emotion-based techniques. So I fall back on cynicism to protect myself from exploitation.
Clive
P.S. Lynn, one-a-day means one thread a day - I just changed the rules
OK so far it looks like i am the only forum member who has done the Landmark Forum. It changed my life! Before i did the seminar about 9 years ago. I was extremely shy with no self confidence. For those who know me now, you, i guess, find this difficult to believe!! Originally my brother in law introduced my husband to it. I too at the time was very sceptical. Said things like "it sounds like a cult". The reason i then went on to do the seminar is because my husband wanted me to do it so badly and at the time we didn't have alot of money, i thought well i trust him implicitly and if he is prepared to spend 200 quid, which we could ill afford, it must be worth a try. He then went on to do advanced seminars and lots of other stuff with them. He has found it very useful in his role as manager and how he deals with the people reporting to him. I found it more useful in my personal life. I did a refresher a couple of years ago too. My two children have also done the Young Persons Forum. I find it really difficult to explain what it is all about, my husbands far better at that than i am. But everybody will get something different from it. It is a very powerful experience. But their big problem is the hard sell. It instantly puts your guard up when they are trying to get you to introduce new people all the time. But i understand the reasoning behind it, it is not for profit. It is because when you have experienced it yourself, you want everyone you care about to experience it too. I will try and get my husband to try and explain more about it on here when he has time. But Clive if you want to talk to me anytime about it just ask when we see each other next.
Di
Not sure you can use the term cult non-perjoratively, I had this discussion with my students on Monday. Certainly if speaking to someone involved in a group and you refer to it as a ‘cult’ it will hinder communication (especially if the group is a controlling cult)
There are various things that make something a 'cult' (and I'm cautious in using the term) but the main things are that they seek to meet people's needs and are offering something, often apparently for nothing, and then require something back, often financially, but it can be demanding attendance at certain events, having to 'spread the message' to others, or simply getting some level of control over the person's decisions. The latter being the thing that causes most concern - the control over someone. Cutting off contact with those outside the group is one of the easiest ways of maintaining control as it removes the individual from the company of anyone who might speak against the group, thats why its a method that many cults use.
This is different from groups who offer to meet needs and give people the opportunity to 'give something back' if they choose. The initial similiarity though is often what helps to lure people into the more controlling groups.
I'm doing a lecture on 'characteristics of a cult' on Monday afternoon.
Hmm, starting from today then? (Sounds like a cross between a detox and a diet plan!)
From what my friend said, I was VERY interested. But as for the hard sell not being for profit? Sorry, but < deletes rude word and replaces with > I don't believe it. When I came away from the intro session, I actually felt quite positive about the program, I just wanted to think about it - £300 after all!
But the woman on the phone the next day- the pressure she put me under was totally and bang out of order - what if I had been someone more vulnerable? It was emotional blackmail of the worst kind. I therefore decided that it wasn't for me. End of.
But as I said in my first post, it evidently works for some people - it did for my friend and it sounds like it did for Cruella. To be fair, they are very specific that they are not targeting people who are so damaged that they would crumble under the pressure of the Landmark program - Landmark is clear that it is not "therapy" as such.
Well, Cruella may have been the first to respond who has actually done it, I will be the second, and I can back Cruella up, whole heartedly! I know a few people who have also done it, who all say the same thing, I only know one person who, in everybody but theirs opinion, did not benefit from it, but I think that is because they had real issues, and were looking for an answer to them all, which Landmark is not, and has never claimed to be.
As somebody else mentioned on here, a cult will actively encourage you to cut all ties with those you love, and who love you, Landmark does the exact opposite, it encourages you to have open and honest relationships with everyone in your life, and breaks down all the fears and barriers you may have that stop you from doing so. I personally am a far more confident person with everyone I know and meet, and have a far closer, open and loving relationship with both my parents, which they too have commented on, and I never even realised before that I didn't have that.
This is a little unusual, but then I did it about 5 years ago, maybe things have changed.
This is a little more like it was when I did it, but it seems the old faithful grapevine has done its bit on twisting the truth once more! You are indeed asked in the first 15 mins if you want to leave, but after that, you are not stopped from leaving, that would be illegal! Doors are not locked, but people are placed at them to speak to people who do want to leave, not to try to pressurise them into staying, but to find out why, see what their concerns are, and see if they can be alleviated. I actually know one friend who really wanted to do the forum, but when she spoke to a representative about her own concerns was discouraged from doing so, as they believed it was not a good thing for her to do at that point in her life.
This is indeed true, and there is very good reason for it which, if you do the forum, you will understand. Its not as heavy handed as it sounds, but how many times have you been late somewhere, and blamed it on a signal failure on your tube line? Maybe there was one, but maybe you would have been late anyway. Accepting responsibility is an important aspect of Forum, and not a negative one.
Not at all, you will just find that the "Landmark Way" as you say becomes a way of life. I don't get anywhere near as stressed as I used to, why get stressed about things you can not change? Just accept them, welcome them, and deal with them.
and that is a bad thing because?
Nobody is ever forced into the limelight, but if you choose to get up and speak infront of everyone, there is obviously reason for it. It will amaze you to see what people speak about, during our whole weekend there were tears, infront of everyone, or quietly on their own, not one person regretted it. Sometimes people talk about their "issues", but all they really do is skirt around the problem, that never solves anything.
Not true at all, you are invited to bring at least one person, you don't have to commit to it, but by the end of the weekend, you will want to bring at least one person with you.
At the end of the day, its a business, a profit making one, with people's wages to pay, and they have to advertise. Would a bunch of miserable looking faces make anyone want to go?
You are right, life isn't all about you, its about others, Landmark is about accepting yourself, and others, as you are, choosing life the way it is, and changing the things you want to change.
I did it 5 years ago now, and I still feel the benefit today, and I do not actively use it at all. Since I did it, I've not tried to "sell" it to anyone, but if you want to talk about it, in a purely non-pushy way, just to see how I benefitted, I'll be happy to, anytime.
Last edited by TiggsTours; 29th-September-2005 at 01:47 PM.
Amen to that.
Not necessarily, it is a common practice to remove an individual from influences that might cause them to question the group but that's the reason for it - to be able to continue to persuade people to 'commit' to the group. A cult could use the opposite angle eg by saying 'we don't encourage people to cut off ties like cults do' as another way of encouraging people to commit to the group. Its getting people 'in' and keeping them 'in' is the aspect of 'control', whatever means are used.
I'm not saying this group is trying to control people in that way - I don't know enough about it, but its certainly using several 'control' techniques which makes me wonder if what they are offering is so great, why the need to put any pressure on people at all? Simply tell people what is available and let them have the intelligence to make that decision for themselves. A hard sell of any kind is always an attempt to influence someone's decision making often against what they would choose to do if left to think about it for themselves. I wouldn't be comfortable with that.
Glad though, that it was of benefit to you TT.
Last edited by Lynn; 29th-September-2005 at 01:59 PM.
Hmmm, that sounds iffy to me. OK, you're not technically stopped from leaving, but merely having guys placed on the doors is in itself a clear pressure to stay. And the "Why do you want to leave?" stuff - nuts to that, that's just exit-interview marketing.
Errr, and if you don't?
I believe Clive was (rightly in my view) distrustful of "Happy faces" marketing - I feel the same way about diet "before / after" marketing. Doesn't necessarily mean the product is junk, just that the marketing doesn't work for you. Of course, the product may very well be junk
I appreciate that it's difficult for any "life-changing" organisation to promote it's wares without aggressive marketing. But I know for a fact that this sort of course wouldn't work for me, if only because I'd be cynical about it from the start - it helps if you have a positive attitude, or at least an open mind, to start with.
I understand what you mean, but I didn't feel myself, or speak to anyone at all, who at any point felt under pressure to stay.Then, errr, you don't (?)I know what you mean, that's what I was saying, marketing is marketing, miserable faces never sell anything, but thebest marketing is always word of mouth, and the only 2 people on here who've actually done it have both claimed it to be excellent.I believe Clive was (rightly in my view) distrustful of "Happy faces" marketing - I feel the same way about diet "before / after" marketing. Doesn't necessarily mean the product is junk, just that the marketing doesn't work for you. Of course, the product may very well be junkI don't think "aggressive marketing" is quite what they do, I only heard of them, word-of-mouth, by someone who'd done it, so did Clive, so did everyone I know who did it, how about you, Creulla, how did you hear of it?
But you are right on one thing, you do need to go to it with an open mind, however, a touch of healthy cynicism is no bad thing, the only attitudes that don't work are "this is never going to do anything, its a load of rubbish, and I refuse to listen" or "this is the answer to all my prayers, after this weekend all my problems will be answered", but then, those 2 attitudes never help in anything.
I see what you mean, but that really isn't what this group is like, I did one weekend, and about 10 evenings (that were all part of the cost) 5 years ago, at the end they asked if I would like to do the next level, I said no, they didn't push it, I've not contacted them since, they've not contacted me, that really is not the way a cult opperates.
It's great that a couple of forumites have shared their experiences. I went along to an introductory evening, based on a friend's comments. He is Bristol-based and the trust has done a lot for him by way of helping him deal with family issues and so on. He did warn me that I would get a hard sell and to make my own mind up - a number of people in Bristol support each other without doing further courses.
I arrived about 10 minutes early and was confronted with a scene between two existing members - one who had arrived at the same time as me and another. They had a spat in front of me - him taking a very patronising tone about her being late and her saying that she was her first week of a new (medical) job and she'd had to work late. His reply was along the lines of "Were there lives in danger?". Hers was that it was a close thing - and he still repremanded her. They then decided to go into a separate room to continue their 'discussion'.
When others arrived for the introductory course, I felt a wave of neediness from them (I'm perfectly happy with this in a part of my life where I volunteer time for others, but wanted this evening to be for me). I decided I didn't want to spend 3/4 hours with them as well as people who had been horrid to each other, so I left.
I'm not saying its a cult. Just that there are some parallels. I could say the same about the 'hard sell' you get about timeshare properties - draw people in, try to influence a decision to get them to part with large sums of money - doesn't make it a cult either. Anyway, you would know much more about it than me, I'd never heard of it before today.
Well, to be (sort of) open-minded, you get twits everywhere. Except in MJ, of course, we're all lovely
It doesn't mean the methodology or techniques are pointless; you get out of this stuff what you want to a lot of the time.
I just don't believe, for me, there's an easy way to self-knowledge. But maybe I'm just contrary, wanting to do things the hard way all the time.
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