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Thread: Ceroc UK Championships 2003

  1. #141
    Registered User John S's Avatar
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    Re: ?????

    Originally posted by Heather
    Blacpool
    Heather - how could you????????

    Originally posted by Heather

    (And I guarantee you will not be able to stop yourself cheering loudly when you see our men!!!)
    Or possibly jeering(just depends how cold it is in the venue)

  2. #142
    Commercial Operator Heather's Avatar
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    Nobody's Perfect!!!

    Not even me, John!!!! (99% perfect!!!!)

    Heather,


    How do you know it wasn't a deliberate spelling mistake to check that you were paying attention!!!!

  3. #143
    Registered User Debster's Avatar
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    D'uh to me!

    Originally posted by Heather
    Are we talking Blackpool [] or London here, Debster?? (This being the Ceroc Champs thread!!!)
    My apologies, getting threads tangled... :sorry
    Well, both really anyway. I'll be at both.
    I just didn't know if there was more than one Scottish team doing the comps, so thanks for your reply

    I'll start warming up my lungs ...

  4. #144
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    Originally posted by Gus
    Still got my reservations about the Intermediate result, and cannot belive that Clayton and Janine weren't placed, .
    I don't often find myself agreeing with Gus, but on this occasion I have to agree entirely - especially about Clayton and Janine. I was watching last years champs video earlier today and came to exactly the same opinion.

  5. #145
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Will
    I don't often find myself agreeing with Gus, but on this occasion I have to agree entirely - especially about Clayton and Janine. I was watching last years champs video earlier today and came to exactly the same opinion.
    Comes back to the age old question ..."what are the judges looking for?" There is no doubt that the Aussie/NZ style is more drops/big move/choroegraphed based ... but in competitions I think that looks really good. With the rule change at Blackpool this would favour their style even more so. For the Ceroc Champs, there is no clear guideline for what they are after .... so, especialy for advanced dancers, no indication for how they should perform.

    I would hate to be a competitor in the 'Open' section ... do you aim for BIG moves, lots of 'technuical' stuff, demonstrate accuracy of CEROC moves, flashy drops ????? The sad truth is that 'just' dancing your best is NOT going to win you competitions at the top level (IMHO).

  6. #146
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    The sad truth is that 'just' dancing your best is NOT going to win you competitions at the top level (IMHO).
    I quite agree. Bit of a shame really.... But that's life....

    Steve

  7. #147
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    Originally posted by Will
    I don't often find myself agreeing with Gus, but on this occasion I have to agree entirely - especially about Clayton and Janine. I was watching last years champs video earlier today and came to exactly the same opinion.

    As an admirer of C&J I'd agree. I felt and feel they are amongst the best and was quite amazed when they weren't placed and thought that several couples in the final didn't really dance that well or that smoothly. Same was true in Blackpool (but i've already expressed my views on that ).

    Playing devil's advocate................... C&J do rely very heavily on her spinning and often do only a handful of moves, repeating some of the 'bigger' moves several times. I noticed that in the last two comps other dancers have often travelled more than they have and even though the dancing has been far less 'sophisticated' others have shown more moves and sometimes have a more 'ceroc' style.

    Perhaps C&J are too smooth for Ceroc UK ! Is it a coincidence that some of the males dancers who have done well ( apart from Clayton) often have a more crouched body position - almost a lindy style ?

    Just over a week to go so can't wait to see everyone and clap and cheer like a mad thing...................

  8. #148
    The Oracle
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    Originally posted by Bill
    several couples in the final didn't really dance that well or that smoothly.
    But is dancing smoothly a typical characteristic of Ceroc?

    The way that most moves are taught is with a pause between each movement, eg
    - Step back on 1
    - {pause}
    - step in on 2
    - {pause}
    - twist the lady out
    - {pause}
    etc, etc

    This style of movement carries over from the class into the way that the vast majority of people freestyle. The movements are done 'quicker' than the music, with a slight hesitation in between to highlight the beats in the music. A lot of teachers dance this way - it makes everything more obvious to the majority of their students.

    I personally think the smoother style looks a lot better, particularly to 'smoother' music. It gives more of an idea of dancing together, rather than mechanically leading and following moves. But someone could easily argue that it doesn't look like 'Ceroc' without this hesitation. And it can be harder to see if someone is dancing in time to the music.

    David

  9. #149
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    But is dancing smoothly a typical characteristic of Ceroc?

    The way that most moves are taught is with a pause between each movement

    David
    I think there is a large gap between how Ceroc is taught and what Modern Jive can look like at the higher levels. The clearest contrast is watching Viktor demonstrate a 1st move then watch him dance it in 'his' style. 'His' style breaks loads of 'Ceroc' rules but no-one would deny which looks better.

    This discussion could easily come back to the 'define Ceroc' debate. A number of competition rules explicitly ban the use of Lindy. WCS, Tango dancing .... but many Modern Jive m,oves are exact copies of Lindy. WCS, Tango dancing ...so where does that leave you

  10. #150
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    But is dancing smoothly a typical characteristic of Ceroc?

    The way that most moves are taught is with a pause between each movement, eg
    - Step back on 1
    - {pause} etc...
    Now David, you are being slightly disingenuous here... Is it your turn at being ODA?

    We do not teach a pause as part of any of the moves. What we do is make sure people take account of the beat, and emphasize where they should be on each beat.
    This might translate into a slight pause (for beginners) when the music is very slow, and you are probably right, a lot of dancers will keep dancing like that, but all it shows is that they have not tried to improve. Most workshops, mostly above Beginners level, but not exclusively, would teach them to smooth the transition between beats / positions.

    The main problem with most dancers is not that they pause too much, but that they rush through the moves. This typically improves with confidence.
    This is probably why Beginner / new Intermediate dancers prefer a faster tempo combined with a regular beat!

    As for smoother dancers not making it to the final, that is not the case. I have not seen the video you refer to, so can't comment on that specific heat, but some of the finalists / winners over the last couple years have been very smooth dancers.

    It is always possible that a very good couple will go through the net, and be missed out though. Conversely, that might have boosted the confidence and chances of another couple winning more competition...

    Franck.

  11. #151
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    Spot on Gus!
    I think that if everyone danced exactly the way they were taught, then you would have a whole dance floor full of dancing clones.
    Once the basic mechanics have been learned, it is up to the individual to develop a style to add to the moves.
    e.g. Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly probably used all the same basic tap steps, but introduced their own style and flair to make them appear different. Re your point about lindy, salsa WCS etc, I have found that most partner dances in this genre use much about the same moves, bur have different footwork to distinguish from other styles

    DD

  12. #152
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gus
    The clearest contrast is watching Viktor demonstrate a 1st move then watch him dance it in 'his' style. 'His' style breaks loads of 'Ceroc' rules but no-one would deny which looks better.
    Well, I would hope so!

    Teaching a move on stage implies making every (important) part of the move obvious to the class. They must see clearly how and where to move. You have to simplify it (especially for Beginners) to make it accessible.

    On the other hand, Freestyle dancing is involves a certain degree of concealment of the structure / rules etc...

    It is a very important part of teacher training to realise that simply wowing you class with Style will not teach them anything (except that they'll probably never be able to do that), you have to be able to break down your style to its most barebone essentials.
    There is obviously a balance to be struck, as you still have to look good and encourage people to emulate some style, but more teaching is required and less 'Showing off' to bring another thread into it!

    Franck.

  13. #153
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Franck
    There is obviously a balance to be struck, as you still have to look good and encourage people to emulate some style, but more teaching is required and less 'Showing off' to bring another thread into it!

    Franck.
    I think the point I was trying to make is that 'what is Ceroc style'? As the only formal teaching is mainly at Intermediate level ... there is no 'official' style when it comes to competition.

    In the UK, Ceroc has only three years presence in competition (unlike our Ceroc Aussie/NZ cousins or US Swing dancers) and so there is no clear definition of what is or isn't good. I remember seeing the first Ceroc final (1999?) and seeing Marco (now a teacher at Leicester) absolutely decimate the rest of the field in the Advanced section. The rest of the finalists 'just' did Ceroc ... Marco DANCED. That was the turning point for me, when I thought I'd like to be able to make Ceroc look something like his style.

    So ... anyone want to venture what you need to do to win?

  14. #154
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gus
    there is no 'official' style when it comes to competition.
    Aaaah, I understand what you meant now

    My answer would be that there should not be an 'official' style. Ceroc has successfully encouraged thousands of people to get into dancing because you did not have 'fit' a particular definition of Style etc...
    The moment we start saying this is Ceroc and this is not (in terms of Style rather than moves / technique), then we lose out big time...

    This is where competitions are a huge problem, as they automatically 'imply' a better style. The only way I can reconcile it personally is to believe that competitions can be a showcase for different styles, and while there will be an overall winner, people will be able to spot a style that suits them amongst the competitors.
    This will allow Ceroc to develop and grow as more styles are added year after year, with trends appearing and disappearing again.
    Unfortunately, the moment we announce in advance: "This is what Ceroc Style should be!" then we lose all inspiration as everyone tries to copy the one style (as Dancing Demon says), we all become clones...

    Franck.

  15. #155
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    Originally posted by Gus
    I think the point I was trying to make is that 'what is Ceroc style'? :
    I don't think you can define the Ceroc 'Style'. Ceroc is a dance, not a style. Style is individual to the dancer. If you look at the finals of last years advanced championships there were various different styles that had won through to the final. Compare Su-Fi with Ray and with James. Very different, but all very succcessful. The Freedom that Ceroc gives you is one of the biggest plus points of the dance for me.

    After all, you don't see such variety of styles in Morris dancing do you!

  16. #156
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gus
    So ... anyone want to venture what you need to do to win?
    Apart from a big fat brown envelope stuffed with high denomination used notes addressed to me?

    I can't say, as obviously I am not in charge of either events, but my hope is that to win, you would have to dance your best and be as original and creative as possible.
    Over and above that, you will need luck on your side, not just that the judges will notice and like your style, but that your style of dancing exceeds the current mood / expectations!

    You did ask

    Franck.

  17. #157
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    I personally think the smoother style looks a lot better, particularly to 'smoother' music. It gives more of an idea of dancing together, rather than mechanically leading and following moves. But someone could easily argue that it doesn't look like 'Ceroc' without this hesitation. And it can be harder to see if someone is dancing in time to the music.
    IMHO, at that level, it should be obvious if the dancers are dancing to the music: isn't that an integral part of 'dancing' anyway?
    {Note - dancing to the music rather than dancing to the beat}

    As to what 'Style' Ceroc should define it's self as, I'm with Franck and Will: it isn't the style that is important, but the dance.
    Gus mentioned that one person wiped the floor at a competition because everyone else was doing the moves and one couple were using the moves to dance. I think that this is what should be judged - not just showing you know the moves, but showing that you can use them.

  18. #158
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gadget
    As to what 'Style' Ceroc should define it's self as, I'm with Franck and Will: it isn't the style that is important, but the dance.
    I'm sorry but recent results dont agree with this sentiment. There have been clear cases where a reliance on choreographed sections and emphasis on flash moves over musical interpretation have carried the day. The problem is that, until this years C2D comp, the judges criteria have remained a mystery. Whether people like the C2D criteria is another matter ... but at least they are now out in the open ..... and it appears that musical interpretation can now be outweighed by using the floor and big moves.... (see below)

    SECTION DESCRIPTION MARKS
    COSTUME / PRESENTATION- Dress, co-ordination with partner 1 - 3
    and overall presentation.

    MUSICALITY / INTERPRETATION- Showmanship, personality, poise, 1 - 5
    The ability to dance to the rhythm, and character of the music.

    TECHNIQUE - Floor craft, good pattern and direction, 1 - 5
    Good use of the floor, consideration to fellow competitors, Style.

    VARIETY COMPLEXITY – Variation, difficulty and execution of moves. 1 - 5
    As Tramp peviously concurred, to do well in these competitions you have to know to what extent the judges are looking for compexity of moves versus musical inetrpretation. The more you go for complex moves the more you tend towards choreographed 'mini-routines' and rely less on 'lead and follow' .... does this make the dance better or is it better to watch. ... who knows?

  19. #159
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    I wouldn't attempt to displace the official ODA... he does too good a job at it.

    I spent a lot of time over the weekend watching West Coast Swing videos. And on Saturday night I went to Stompin' in Brighton, where there were a lot of very good jive dancers. It struck me that jive had a very 'staccatto' look compared to WCS, even amongst the advanced dancers. Some of this is the nature of the dance - WCS encourages a smoother style as most of the moves try to keep the lady moving, rather than constantly stopping and starting her.

    But I also thought that there was a definite hesitation after virtually every movement, that didn't need to be there. It is not a complete freeze, but it is definitely an interruption to a smooth movement. (It is more like lifting off the accelerator than pressing the brake pedal.) It is probably the most noticable difference between Modern Jive and other forms of swing.

    I'm not saying this is wrong. It can help define the beat, and is especially useful when dancing with beginners. (Dancing 'smooth' with beginners can make it harder for them.) I also think that a teacher needs to do this when teaching, as it really helps everyone in the class know when they should be doing things.


    The point I was trying to make is that you could either consider this a styling point, or as an intrinsic part of the dance.

    If it is a styling point, then you can do it, exaggerate it, or cut it out completely. But you also have to consider the music as well. There isn't a blanket style that suits every type of music, particularly at the advanced level. What suits one song may not suit another. In particular a smooth style might be ideal for slower, bluesier tracks (eg Wade In The Water), but not for more contemporary dance tracks with frequent rhythm changes (eg 25 Miles).

    But if a judge thinks it is an intrinsic part of the dance, he could quite reasonably mark someone down for not doing it. And if you consider that it is something most people do, and gives Ceroc a particular look, then you could argue it is not just a style, but a fundamental part of the dance.

    David

  20. #160
    The Oracle
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    Originally posted by Dance Demon
    Once the basic mechanics have been learned, it is up to the individual to develop a style to add to the moves.
    Originally posted by Gus
    ... Marco DANCED. That was the turning point for me, when I thought I'd like to be able to make Ceroc look something like his style.
    Originally posted by Franck
    people will be able to spot a style that suits them amongst the competitors.
    Originally posted by Will
    Style is individual to the dancer.
    One reason why I believe there are no truly advanced jive dancers yet is that all the best couples seem to have just one style. They dance their style no matter what song is being played. No-one yet seems to have a range of styles that suits the different types of music that gets played.

    If you were given the list of songs that would get played in the heats and the finals, you could probably work out the results. Different music would give a different results. So does that mean the best couple win?

    David

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