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Thread: Ceroc UK Championships 2003

  1. #101
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    Originally posted by Gadget
    What's your motivation for dancing then? -
    Dancing (in virtually any form) is as much a part of me as eating or breathing....I "fly" when I dance. I am just as happy dancing in the kitchen as on the dance floor.

    There were three generations of dancers in the house when I was small and as soon as I could stand/walk I wanted to join in.

    I suppose you could liken it to a "fix" - the adrenalin/seratonin rush of moving with the beat, depending on the mood of the music.

    The added benefit of attending at a Ceroc venue is the opportunity to be with people who love dancing as much as I do.

  2. #102
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    Originally posted by Aleks
    ...The added benefit of attending at a Ceroc venue is the opportunity to be with people who love dancing as much as I do.
    So why can't those who compete, compete just as another chance to dance {no C2D pun intended} - why does the love of dancing have to be exclusive to competing? Just because it's a competition, it dosn't mean that the participants enjoy dancing any less - for most, they enjoy it more!

    Will: Bad anology. just bad. <shake head> a more appropriate one would be Judo or any of the 1 on 1 martial arts. Wrestling!?

  3. #103
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gadget
    Will: Bad anology. just bad. <shake head> a more appropriate one would be Judo or any of the 1 on 1 martial arts. Wrestling!?
    Oh come on, Gadget - just think of the chance to see your fellow forumites clad in spandex!

  4. #104
    Chief Worrier PeterL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gadget
    So why can't those who compete, compete just as another chance to dance {no C2D pun intended}

    It's not the competing I have a problem with. It's people that take it so seriously.

    It's the American attitude of be the best, second place is just not good enough, the bad sportmanship involved in questioning judges decisions. etc.

    I guess I just like to beleive that everyone that takes part is a winner.

    1. For having the nerve.
    2. For enjoying themselves.

    However when a public forum starts questioning judges and criteria and the like, simple folk like myself are put off dancing comps as they wonder if everyone takes it really seriously.

    And at the end of the day if it wasn't for the everyday have fun dancer like myself then these people trying to build up cv's to teach would be out of jobs.

    Aspirations are fine, but sportmanship is also important and losing gracefully without question is far better than winning in my opinion. Just come back next year with more experience.

    C2D provide the venue the competition and the rules, you don't have to go but if you do then you agree to abide by there rules and there judges decisions.
    The same goes for ceroc competitions.

    There is room for different competitions with different criteria and everyones definition of what is the best will be different. If you feel so strongly that a competition is wrong then boycott it, or start your own competition with what you believe to be the correct criteria.

    There is also nothing wrong with findingout criteria so that you can swot up just like an exam, but don't question or argue with the rules set out or the judges decisions.

    The judges are human and will make mistakes but that is life and after all it is only dancing.


    rant over

  5. #105
    Registered User Jayne's Avatar
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    Peter,

    out of interest, have you been to a dancing comp?

    Jayne

  6. #106
    Chief Worrier PeterL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jayne
    Peter,

    out of interest, have you been to a dancing comp?

    Jayne

    Yes I went to the Scottish comps, which was great fun. I entered the lucky dip, went out first round and had a great time.

    My problem isn't from experience of dancing or a venue but from the tone and subject matter in this thread.

    I am also entering the C2D intermediate I hope, and fully expect to be out in the first round but I will have a great time and hopefully return year after year.

  7. #107
    Registered User Jayne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PeterL
    Yes I went to the Scottish comps, which was great fun. I entered the lucky dip, went out first round and had a great time.

    My problem isn't from experience of dancing or a venue but from the tone and subject matter in this thread.

    I am also entering the C2D intermediate I hope, and fully expect to be out in the first round but I will have a great time and hopefully return year after year.
    Just wondered...

    Cheers
    J

  8. #108
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    Re: Dancing vs Wrestling

    Originally posted by Will

    I think Ceroc has everthing that wrestling has to offer and more, and like wrestling, competition is important, but it isn't everything!
    Good point ! But are you saying that Ceroc comps are rigged in the same way wrestling is ???

    I've not been on the Forum for ages and I have to disagree with the complaints that the discussion is heated !

    I'm quite surprised at how low key and reasonable everyone is knowing how strongly some of the contributors feel about the subject.

    My sole intention when entering my first few comps in London was simply to move when the music started , not to panic and hoepfully to have fun. I didn't even look at the criteria for judging and still haven't paid that much attention to it because at Blackpool and in London I've never expected to get too far.

    But I understand why those dancers who want/need a title to help make a name as a teacher want to know what the criteria is and who is judging. That doesn't mean the rest of us can't have fun and do the best we can but they have different reasons and a different agenda from most of us.

    And I agree that the judges shoudl make the marks know because of the balance of objectivity and subjectivity. We all like slightly different styles and I can appreciate that someone is a good dancer even though I might not like their style. I could never dance like Dan - nor have the body - but it's obvious that the man can dance !

    I've said several times on other threads that there is always the danger of some bias in any form of judging - whether it be ice- skating or dancing ( or whatever) and the dance scene can be rather 'incestuous' with all the top dancers and judges pretty much on first name terms and in some cases good friends. So no surprises that some dancers might be wary about some decisions.

    With a group of 6 judges then any bias should be eliminated - but there can still be some concern over decisions if it's clear that some judges have more than a passing interest in some competitors eg close friend, a regular 'student' etc.. I did suggest a while ago that judges should declare any interests - especially for a final but I think I was a lone voice there.

    I'm really not sure why I compete but I am looking forward to seeing lots of folk I know at Blackpool and having fun - and as we haven't started practicing yet for the double trouble or the Advanced we will be going down simply to have fun.

  9. #109
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    Originally posted by Lou
    Oh come on, Gadget - just think of the chance to see your fellow forumites clad in spandex!
    Im not sure Id look good in spandex - mind you Bill and Fran should consider it for their next Competition

  10. #110
    Chief Worrier PeterL's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Dancing vs Wrestling

    Originally posted by Bill


    I've not been on the Forum for ages and I have to disagree with the complaints that the discussion is heated !

    I'm quite surprised at how low key and reasonable everyone is knowing how strongly some of the contributors feel about the subject.

    Bill I have to bow down to a decent argument.
    Plus I love a good argument(debate) though not as much as dancing.

    I did post this early on in the thread
    It seems to me that there is some obvious dissatisfaction in previous decisions from the general tone of this thread, not being good enough to be of real competition standard I wouldn't even consider questioning judges decisions, however I would be interested in knowing where these dissatisfactions come from and the history behind them.

    Have you seen some obvious bad decisions? etc.

    Or is it just a devil's advocate type thread.

    To this I didn't really get a reply I would still be interested even and if people don't want to post this sort of thing publically. That I understand.

  11. #111
    Chief Worrier PeterL's Avatar
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    I would like to point out that my arguments on this thread are based solely on my own experiences.

    I believe that it is a strength (unlike politicians) to listen to the opinion of others and when that opinion makes sense change your mind.

    I haven't fully changed my mind on this issue but I recognise that there is a lot at stake for some people and some deep feeling on the issue.

    I also guess it is best to offer opinions before the decisions are made and the venue managers can evaluate that advise and use it in there decision process than to have sour grapes once the decisions are made.

    This has been a very interestin debate and although opinions differ on this forum. We all have one thing in common- A love of dancing.

    heres hoping that most people are happy with any judging at this years events and despite that we all have a good time and plenty of dances.

  12. #112
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PeterL
    It's the American attitude of be the best, second place is just not good enough, the bad sportmanship involved in questioning judges decisions. etc........Aspirations are fine, but sportmanship is also important and losing gracefully without question is far better than winning in my opinion
    Interesting. Got any examples of bad sportmanship? I've only heard about the one incident in the seven events I've spectated/competed in.....


    And at the end of the day if it wasn't for the everyday have fun dancer like myself then these people trying to build up cv's to teach would be out of jobs.
    ...and some might argue (ODA ) that if it wasn't for the teachers trying to develop new styles and new moves that the everyday dancer wouldn't ahve new moves and workshops to enjoy

  13. #113
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    Originally posted by PeterL
    It's not the competing I have a problem with. It's people that take it so seriously.
    Why should their attitude have any bearing on your decision to compete? Let them take it seriously, worry about placeings, judging criteria, how many sequens you can have on an outfit before it become ott... All you need to do is dance, have fun and appreciate the other competitor's dancing.

    It's the American attitude of be the best, second place is just not good enough, the bad sportmanship involved in questioning judges decisions. etc.
    <snip>
    Aspirations are fine, but sportmanship is also important and losing gracefully without question is far better than winning in my opinion. Just come back next year with more experience.
    So having drive and a "thirst for first" is un-sportsman-like? Because you enter a competition with the desire to win does not automatically make you a bad competitor or involve bad sportsmanship - in fact I would argue that questioning the judging (esp your own marks), would give you a better understanding of the judges perception and lead to better dancing; they are after all selected because of their expertise.

    Origionaly posted by Lou
    Oh come on, Gadget - just think of the chance to see your fellow forumites clad in spandex!
    OK so my daugher may be named 'Logan'; that does not mean that blue and yellow lycra is my thing!
    {I now have a mental image of some of the regular folks in 'comic book' spandex costumes. ... and it won't go away! }

  14. #114
    Chief Worrier PeterL's Avatar
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    I will quote my last 2 posts
    Bill I have to bow down to a decent argument.
    I believe that it is a strength (unlike politicians) to listen to the opinion of others and when that opinion makes sense change your mind.
    I haven't fully changed my mind on this issue but I recognise that there is a lot at stake for some people and some deep feeling on the issue.

    I also guess it is best to offer opinions before the decisions are made and the venue managers can evaluate that advise and use it in there decision process than to have sour grapes once the decisions are made.
    By making these statements I was saying that your arguments had swayed my opinion and that although I do not totally agree with everything that you guys say, I nowagree with enoughof it to back down on my earlier stated point of view.

  15. #115
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    You go away on holiday for a few days, and it takes hour to catch up!!!

    A few thoughts

    In answer to the question I was asked - in WCS comps in the US (and in Ballroom competitions across the world) judges have to be qualified. You have to be a qualified dance teacher, and then, especially for major competitions, be a qualified judge. This means at least attending a judging workshop, and usually gaining experience in judging minor competitions. (These workshops are open to competitors as well.) For Ballroom I think you have to take additional exams as well??

    You also need experience. Most judges are ex-competitors. They also judge a lot - in West Coast Swing in the US, and in Ballroom, there are several competitions every weekend. It is quite easy to get the experience. In Modern Jive, it would take years to get the same expertise

    Qualifications
    There are only 2 organisations that have qualifications - Ceroc and Leroc. I cannot argue with Ceroc only allowing CTA-qualified dancers to judge, (or Leroc with whatever their qualification is) because who can say that any other modern jive teacher is more qualified? For any non-qualified dancer to be considered as a judge, then they would have to be generally recognised as being a good dancer, who knows a lot about jive, who has a good reputation, willing to do a pretty thankless job, not connected with any competitor, and who doesn't want to compete. That rules a lot of people out.

    Swing Judges
    I think most organisers still have problems finding enough suitable judges to worry about loading the panel with a particular preference. Yes ideally you might want a panel consisting of modern jivers whose individual styles emcompassed swing, latin, hip-hop, blues, etc, but there just aren't enough people out there yet.

    Publishing
    The only thing I would argue for is that
    - the criteria are published in advance
    - the compilation of the results takes into account these criteria
    - the judges marks are published after the competition. They can be anonymous on the day (ie judge A, B, C, D etc), but I think the names should be available at some point.

    I don't care what the criteria are - if the men get bonus marks for wearing a pink tutu then fine - just tell people in advance (then if the Tramp decides to enter, I can leave the country!!)

    All the discussions about past competitions are pointless in that the results will never be changed. But they are also worthwhile if they mean future competitions don't get the same comments.

    Critique
    At some competitions in the US, there is an extra 'judge' that doesn't score, but will make notes on each couple. These notes are made available to each couple afterwards. It is to help people improve by getting an impartial view of their dancing.

    Why Compete
    As for why people compete - I don't care. If somebody is prepared to put on a show for me, I'll watch. It doesn't matter if they are out there to win, to have fun, or just for a laugh. They have put in the time and energy to compete, and I'll show them the courtesy of watching. The middle of the floor can be a lonely place (I know!!!), and it can also be the most rewarding place in the world. Everyone deserves the latter.

    David

  16. #116
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    I don't care what the criteria are - if the men get bonus marks for wearing a pink tutu then fine - just tell people in advance (then if the Tramp decides to enter, I can leave the country!!)
    Well....actually David. You know that C2D are awarding a prize for the best dressed competitor on the day.....

    Do you want me to list a few airline companies for you??

    Steve

  17. #117
    Omnipotent Moderator Tiggerbabe's Avatar
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    What a great idea!

    Originally posted by DavidB
    You go away on holiday for a few days, and it takes hour to catch up!!!
    Well that'll teach you!

    Critique
    At some competitions in the US, there is an extra 'judge' that doesn't score, but will make notes on each couple. These notes are made available to each couple afterwards. It is to help people improve by getting an impartial view of their dancing.

    David
    Wow! What a great idea! As someone who enters the competition (and I have only been to 3) hoping to do better than we(myself and my partner) did the time before this would be great. At least it would help you understand where you were going wrong and if you felt so inclined you could fix it! Ok - I realise it wouldn't be an in depth analysis due to the time alloted to each couple, but it would be better than just getting put out in the first round without any ideas as to how to improve.

  18. #118
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    Qualifications
    There are only 2 organisations that have qualifications - Ceroc and Leroc. David
    Dave, once more an excellent synopsis. The only point I possibly may take issue with wa the above phrase. I was under the impression (though I may be wrong) that both Blitz and Mo'Jive have teacher qualifications ..... minor point in an otherwise excellent posting.

  19. #119
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    Re: What a great idea!

    Originally posted by Sheena
    (and I have only been to 3)
    says a lot for your learning curve Sheena , after winning nearly everything at the last one

  20. #120
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    At some competitions in the US, there is an extra 'judge' that doesn't score, but will make notes on each couple. These notes are made available to each couple afterwards. It is to help people improve by getting an impartial view of their dancing.

    David
    Agree with Sheena on this as well. Would love to have someone give me some feedback and some tips. Having watched some footage from London a couple of years ago a few friendly words might have been very helpful

    I might complain about some decisions and possible bias in some results but as David says......a pretty thankless task and one I would certainly be happy to live without so a huge thanks to those who do agree to do it.

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