Ceroc UK Championships 2003

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood
Absolutely. It was a fun 'competition' and very different from the 'Ceroc Championships' as everyone who was at the Route 66 Xmas party will know.
In fact, couples were initially eliminated purely on the basis of what items of clothing, jewellery etc. they were wearing.
Once there were three couples left the issue became seeing which couple was game enough to have a shot at all the different types of dance suggested by the various musical clips they were presented with - locomotion, grease, cancan etc.
Very soon there was only one couple left, Pete and Aleks, who kept going until the end. They got their very well deserved prize not simply because they were the only couple left but because they entered completely into the spirit of all the musical styles they were faced with and gave all the punters watching a very enjoyable 3 minutes!

And weren't we absolutely useless at the locomotion and twist!!!

[Dr. Feelgood]

Originally posted by Aleks
And weren't we absolutely useless at the locomotion and twist!!!

Well, it looked good to me (and everyone else I've no doubt) (although I've no idea how to 'do the locomotion' myself...)

[Jayne]

I can't believe I'm about to defend Gus... Oh well, here goes...

Originally posted by Aleks
Not having a competitive bone in my body (other than to constantly better MYSELF), I don't understand the need:

(a) to compete

(b) to win

(c) to preempt judging criteria.

Could someone please explain this to me?

We had a discussion on the forum before about how we decide to go to the workshops we go to. Ok so some of this decision is based on recommendation and "herd instinct" but if the teachers are completely unknown to you then you have to base your decision on something else - commonly it's on their credentials. In the case of teachers one way of assessing their ability is how long they've been dancing and at what level they were (are) dancing at. (yes I know that this doesn't mean that they'll be good teachers but that takes us off the point...) One way of deciding how good the teachers are is to look at their competition success: in this situation competitors are kinda trying to put something on their CV or giving themselves a selling point. As for why you would want to preempt judging criteria - it increases your chance of success. That's why you go through mock papers before you sit an exam - you learn what the examiners are looking for in answers and then you answer in that style to get the highest marks.

Of course some people are just competitive. End of story.

Jayne

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood
I've no idea how to 'do the locomotion' myself...)

My point exactly.....I was copying the other couples, which is why I ran into trouble when I had my back to them and it all went to pot!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jayne
I can't believe I'm about to defend Gus... Oh well, here goes...

That it has come to this ... the Mighty ODA being defended by TrixiBell

Sorry guys but I fell no inclination to apologise for being competitive. Regardless of the need for teachers to get a reputation, a lot of people who take part in activities apprecaite the competitive aspect, wheras other treat them as a past-time .. e.g. badminton, chess, karate. Neither side has the rigyt to critisise the other.

another point is that it is through the (self-induced) pain of improving ones own dance standard that the overall dance standard is improved and new moves are produced ... and this benefits Ceroc as a whole ..... so where is the downside? People comment about dancers taking it too seriously ... to which I would say that the few dancers I've noticed who could be so labelled aren't competition dancers ... just ego's on legs!

[Will]

Nice one Jayne

It is of course important that we know what the judging criteria is, which is why Ceroc and other organisations give you guidelines as to what the judges are looking for.

And just so that naught Gus can't mis-represent my comments about Ceroc judging being subjective opinion........

If I was watching a 100 metre race and they declared the guy who came in 5th as the winner for no good reason, despite the fact that 4 other competitors ran faster without cheating or anything, I would be the first to have a go at the judges. But where dancing is concerned, the result is not absolute and can be open to subjective opinion... hec that's why you have a panel of judges and not just one. I bet it's very rare that all the judges on a panel come up with the same 3 placings.

[bradders]

Sorry for not coming back sooner to questions on Judges at Ceroc Champs and the Open category.
I don't check in too often.
The Judges are chosen from the 100 or so CTA current qualified Ceroc Teachers.
They are normally listed in the programme of the day with a short profile and a photograph.
They have not been chosen for this years Comp yet.
They are chosen by George who runs the Dance Department.
We have not had an easy way of advertising who the judges would be before the day in the past, but now we have our flashy new website I will probably put the list with pictures and profiles as will go in the programme on the site once they have been selected.
As to criteria for selection, well they have always been a selection of more experienced ceroc Teachers and a sprinkling of less experienced ones to give them experience.
Basically this is a Ceroc Competition and so we use Ceroc Teachers.
We are not saying they are the best Judges in the world, (and nor would they!) but the CTA is the facility that we have for that purpose. I think they have done well in the past overall.
We have never had specialist guest judges but that may be worth considering for the future.
With regard to judging aerials, well they won't be. If a couple choose to do aerials that fine, good luck to them, but they are judged on the crieria set out in the rules, which are much wider than just 'good at aerials'. If someone wants to know what they will be judged then they just have to read the rules.
By the way judging, rules and aerials are not my specialist subjects.
If you have specific questions regarding Judges and/or rules for this competition please send an email to queries@cerocchamps.com for the attention of George.
I like this discussion though, it stimulates thought and will lead to the rethinking of certain aspects of the competition and hopefully improvement.
When you're in the thick of organising an event like this, with time constraints, the wood and trees all merge and "what we did last year will do" metality slips in.
So more feedback and more discussion please and any more questions?
Will never be able to please everybody though!?!?!?!?

[Gus]

Originally posted by Will
........I bet it's very rare that all the judges on a panel come up with the same 3 placings.

Possibly .. but in some competitions its more clear cut than others. At Ceroc Scotland Champs I think most of us judges agreed on the advanced section., I've done a number of DWAS and Double trouble competitions where the final decision has been fairly easy ... at least in the final.

I accept your point that the process will always rely on a degree of personal subjectivity ... but given the experience of the judges ... I'm far more comfortable with the likes of N&N etc making that call than I would be for some vague teacher whom I've never heard of. ..... and no thats not having a go at CTA .... merely a personal opinion.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Gus
Sorry guys but I fell no inclination to apologise for being competitive. Regardless of the need for teachers to get a reputation, a lot of people who take part in activities apprecaite the competitive aspect, wheras other treat them as a past-time .. e.g. badminton, chess, karate. Neither side has the rigyt to critisise the other.

I was just curious to know and try to understand people's motivation for competing, as I have none. My only motivation for competing would be to show my own style of dancing, rather than seeking to conform to pre-set criteria.

[John S]

As someone who is always happy to compete, without having the slightest chance or ambition of winning (ie, I suffer from a sort of "Brechin City in the Scottish Cup" syndrome) I have a slightly different take on the judging debate.

Most of those who take part in any major competition, and who pay exactly the same entrance fee as the stars who might actually harbour hopes of winning, let's not forget, have a much more limited ambition (as well as having a bit of fun), namely to achieve a personal best - whether that's to get past the 1st round, 2nd round or whatever.

But inevitably the floor is very crowded for the initial rounds, the judges have only a very limited time to make their choices, and sod's law dictates that after a brilliant 2 minutes a disastrous move happens right under the nose of a patrolling judge - result an early exit and disappointment (again).

There's no easy answer I can think of, other than to accept that life can be unfair and the result of a dance competition doesn't really matter a jot - so although I do agree with Gus that those who have practiced for months deserve the best, so do the rest of us!

And no, I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make either.

[Carla]

I think you have to REALLY stand out in the preliminary rounds and wear bright clothes, smile at the judges, etc. Where you dance probably affects how you do too, i.e. if you are lost in the middle then you have little chance of being seen.

Some of us are born to shine, and how we chose to do so is up to the individual. Some need the recognition of being 'the best', need to prove that we are liked and good at something. Others are happy to take part and don't need to shine.

[Gus]

Originally posted by John S

Most of those who take part in any major competition, and who pay exactly the same entrance fee as the stars who might actually harbour hopes of winning, let's not forget, have a much more limited ambition (as well as having a bit of fun), namely to achieve a personal best - whether that's to get past the 1st round, 2nd round or whatever.

But inevitably the floor is very crowded for the initial rounds, the judges have only a very limited time to make their choices

John ... excellent point. The one thing that did dismay me with the Ceroc Champs constructive critisism to follow) was how packed the rounds were! At C2D there is a bigger dancefloor and less couples ... making it a far easier job.

The exception of course if the Dance with a Stranger ... where tradition demands that you hide from the judges to avoid the dreaded tap on the shoulder ... the change at C2D for this year will call for new tactics

I think your point re the 'slient majority' on non-stars is also valid. I think that the real feel of a competition is only partly down to the few who are really in with a chance. Some of the best times come from seeing dancers who are there with the 'what the heck' attitiude and make it a great day .... who knows, sometimes its one of the non-stars who ends up in the Final!

[Dr. Feelgood]

Originally posted by Carla
I think you have to REALLY stand out in the preliminary rounds and wear bright clothes, smile at the judges, etc.

Perhaps some general truth in that...

but I remember one lucky dip contestant in the Scottish competition for whom bright clothes and judge-smiling were the cause of his downfall. Perhaps he went that little bit too far

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Aleks
I was just curious to know and try to understand people's motivation for competing, as I have none.

What's your motivation for dancing then? - Can't that be the same motivation for competing?
Why not compete just to have the chance to dance with new people or see other people dance that you haven't before? Watching 'the best' and seeing if you want to addapt any of their style into yours? Seeing others doing fancy moves to inspire your dancing?

Competing does not have to be about winning - it is sometimes more a social thing where you meet up with people from different geographical areas that you haven't seen for a long time.

Originally posted by Gus
Possibly .. but in some competitions its more clear cut than others. At Ceroc Scotland Champs I think most of us judges agreed on the advanced section., I've done a number of DWAS and Double trouble competitions where the final decision has been fairly easy ... at least in the final.

I would think that if the judging got easier as the heats progressed then the judging up to that point is poor: The whole point is that the weaker {for want of a better word} dancers get eliminated first, leaving dancers of higher calaber.
When the semi/finals are reached, then the competitors should be fairly close in ability, and the judge's jobs should be harder because the dancers are so good.

{I have seen very few exceptions, where one individual just shines above everyone - and in these cases, it's almost a foregone conclusion and the difficult decision is in the placing's of the other competitors}

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Gadget

Competing does not have to be about winning - it is sometimes more a social thing where you meet up with people from different geographical areas that you haven't seen for a long time.

I agree totally with this and it is people that take it overly seriously to the point of complaining about judging criteris before the competition takes place, that puts people off competing for fun. They feel they are not good enough to compete because they don't practice every day hiring dance space etc.

Modern Jive has a very open and welcoming structure, it would be a shame if the competitions became to intimidating to us mere mortals who want to have a go just for a laugh and a good weekend.

I think Aleks wasn't saying don't enter competitions, my take on what she said was have a go enjoy it, if you don't win, get over it, it's only dancing.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Gadget
Why not compete just to have the chance to dance with new people or see other people dance that you haven't before? Watching 'the best' and seeing if you want to addapt any of their style into yours? Seeing others doing fancy moves to inspire your dancing?

For me that's the whole point of going to competitions - but that doesn't explain the need to compete. Surely you get these things from watching other dancers and from the freestyle sessions - what do you get from competing that you don't get from watching and freestyling?

Jayne

[Carla]

Competing???

Is it about recognition, prizes, and status, or maybe more the personal satisfaction of taking part and doing well?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Jayne
For me that's the whole point of going to competitions - but that doesn't explain the need to compete. Surely you get these things from watching other dancers and from the freestyle sessions - what do you get from competing that you don't get from watching and freestyling?

But you only get to watch and freestyle at partys and local classes; competitions tend to draw on a larger catchment and have things like 'showcases' where you can watch something (and/or someone) other than your normal crowd.

As to the psychological need to compete, I would presume that it's mainly as a form of non-bias self-assesment; the easiest way to judge your own ability is to compare it with someone else's.

(Of course, some people try to select competitions or events where the judge's bias is favoured towards them or the level of competitor is expected to be lower than them - those tend to be the over-competative egotists who are only looking for trophys.{IMHO})

[Will]

This debate about Dance judging has rumbled on and on. So I'd like to offer an Equivalent comparison to take the heat out of the debate.

Take Pro Wrestling for example. A sport / entertainment consisting of 2 people (in the main), grappling it out infront of a panel of judges.

If you become a wrestler, you wanna compete, you wanna win, you wanna be the best.

But also wrestling is a great pastime where you meet lots of people and it is fantastic excercise - I mean look how fit most of them are!

I think Ceroc has everthing that wrestling has to offer and more, and like wrestling, competition is important, but it isn't everything!

[PeterL]

I always wondered about the ladies half nelson.