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Thread: Ceroc UK Championships 2003

  1. #41
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    Originally posted by Gus
    ....having had time to watch the Advanced competition a fair few times, got to admit my original view was wrong.

    .... BUT it proved to me just how wrong initial impressions can be.
    Interesting comments, given that the judges at a competition do no get to watch action replays and only have their initial impressions to base their decision on.

  2. #42
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Janet
    Interesting comments, given that the judges at a competition do no get to watch action replays and only have their initial impressions to base their decision on.
    Hence the importance of experience and impartiality in a judge ... and hence the interest in who is judging at Ceroc. Who is going to put themselves though all the pain, humiliation, cost and confidence angst for the Open section only to (potentially) find themselves be judged by someone who has less experience than they have???

  3. #43
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    Originally posted by Gus
    Still got my reservations about the Intermediate result, and cannot belive that Clayton and Janine weren't placed, BUT it proved to me just how wrong initial impressions can be.
    I'd probably go along with you there Gus. But if anything could surprise me more than C&J not getting placed or Stevie Wong not winning the intermediate, if would be every judging decision being totally in-line with my own. There are always going to be differences, and after being in Bristol last year, I realised how relatively close the Ceroc judging was to my own opinion.

  4. #44
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    You mean Will, that you didn't think that the judging in Bristol last year was close to what you thought the results should be???

    Steve

  5. #45
    Confirmed Forum Plant Basil Brush (Forum Plant)'s Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gus
    Who is going to put themselves though all the pain, humiliation, cost and confidence angst for the Open section only to (potentially) find themselves be judged by someone who has less experience than they have???
    Experience in what? Judging or dancing?

    Which ought to be more important?

  6. #46
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Basil Brush
    Experience in what? Judging or dancing?

    Which ought to be more important?
    Personal view is that you have to be a pretty fair dancer to begin with ... THEN get judging experience. Having done some judging myself, I know full well just how difficult it is ... it would have been all the harder if I hadn't been dancing for a fair while and got some competition experience.

    I still come back to an previous point .... in ANY form of assessed competition, you have to have confidence that the judges know what they are talking about .... that they have credibility.

  7. #47
    Confirmed Forum Plant Basil Brush (Forum Plant)'s Avatar
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    I think it's a bit daunting as Janet says, where the initial subjective impression is what's most important. Who I think is great and who my partner thinks is crap, could be the same person! So what seems vital is that there are a large quantity of judges to create some sort of balance.

  8. #48
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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    You mean Will, that you didn't think that the judging in Bristol last year was close to what you thought the results should be???

    Steve
    That's correct Steve. But don't worry, I wasn't talking about the showcase catagory which I know you entered. To be honest I can't remember who won that. Apologies if it was you :sorry

    I ain't gonna start slagging the judges at Bristol off though. At the end of the day it does come down to subjective opinion.

  9. #49
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Will
    At the end of the day it does come down to subjective opinion.

    Well .... yes and no. If you take your statement to its logical conclusion there would be no point judging anything because evryone could say that the end decision was purely "subjective".

    Without trying to sound elitest, there are dancers at the top end of the game who know enough about the dance and what it SHOULD be, that can watch a couple dance and come to an assesment of who 'good' that couple are. From this basis, a panel of experienced judges can make an informed and cohesive decision as to who is first, second and third in a competition.

    Or is that not what you were trying to say?

    My main question over the judges outside Ceroc is that a fair number of them seem to be more Swing based rather than Modern Jive based.......

  10. #50
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    Originally posted by Will
    . At the end of the day it does come down to subjective opinion.
    The only guarantee in life is that - At the end of the day, its night.

    unless you live in Alaska, or Finland or er..never mind then.

  11. #51
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    I thought that the only guarentees in life were death and taxes.

    Steve

  12. #52
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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    I thought that the only guarentees in life were death and taxes.
    Well I'm not dead yet, but I can verify the Taxes.

    Originally posted by Gus
    Well .... yes and no. If you take your statement to its logical conclusion there would be no point judging anything because evryone could say that the end decision was purely "subjective".
    By entering a competition, you are agreeing to be judged by the panel of judges - if you enter a 'Foxtrot' competition, you expect to be judged on how you dance 'Foxtrot' in comparison to how the other compettitors dance it.
    But you also have to accept that the judges opinion of what a 'foxtrot' actually is, is subjective and what you will be judged on - not what you think it should be.
    Yes, competitions and judging are subjective, but by entering the competition you are agreeing to be judged by several subjective opinions that collectivly define the competition. (That is why there is more than one judge)

    This is why I think that the scoring should be published after the competition and who is judging before it. The dancers could form their own opinions of what each judge looks for, what they mark down and what they mark up.

    My main question over the judges outside Ceroc is that a fair number of them seem to be more Swing based rather than Modern Jive based.......
    So the main problem is the definition between 'Swing' and 'Modern Jive' - obviously your definition is different to the judges. So.... where does that difference lie ?

  13. #53
    Chief Worrier PeterL's Avatar
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    It seems to me that there is some obvious dissatisfaction in previous decisions from the general tone of this thread, not being good enough to be of real competition standard I wouldn't even consider questioning judges decisions, however I would be interested in knowing where these dissatisfactions come from and the history behind them.

    Have you seen some obvious bad decisions? etc.

    Or is it just a devil's advocate type thread.

  14. #54
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gadget
    So the main problem is the definition between 'Swing' and 'Modern Jive' - obviously your definition is different to the judges. So.... where does that difference lie ?
    Sorry ... I think you may misunderstand what I meant. At Blackpool last year, of the 7 judges, Nigel & Nina, James & Bridget are very much Swing/Lindy based. From their dance styles, I would also say that Simon & Marialene also have a leaning towards Swing/Lindy. I'm not saying that they would then be biased towards a competitor who then danced in a Lindy style, but I'm just observing that only one of the judges was an out-and-out Modern Jiver.

  15. #55
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    Originally posted by PeterL
    It seems to me that there is some obvious dissatisfaction in previous decisions from the general tone of this thread, ........... however I would be interested in knowing where these dissatisfactions come from and the history behind them.
    .
    As with all judging competitions, there have been some decsiions that have caused no small amount of concern ... however, I think this thread was focusing more on what criteria will be applied to select the judges for the Advanced and Open categories of the Ceroc Champs. Judges tend to be selected from the ranks of the better competitiors ... but Ceroc Instructors have previously been prevented from competing ......

  16. #56
    Chief Worrier PeterL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gus
    but Ceroc Instructors have previously been prevented from competing ......
    This sort of implies that Ceroc instructors would make the best competitors. I don't know that is the case.
    Teaching and competing are far different skills.

  17. #57
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    Originally posted by Gus
    Sorry ... I think you may misunderstand what I meant. At Blackpool last year, of the 7 judges, Nigel & Nina, James & Bridget are very much Swing/Lindy based. From their dance styles, I would also say that Simon & Marialene also have a leaning towards Swing/Lindy. I'm not saying that they would then be biased towards a competitor who then danced in a Lindy style, but I'm just observing that only one of the judges was an out-and-out Modern Jiver.
    Gus, why should this matter? Nigel & Nina are recognised as expert Modern Jivers and are more than qualifed to judge a Modern Jive event (IMHO).

    James and Bridget are perhaps more Swing orientated than N&N but again they have years of experience of teaching their Modern Jive-like JazzJive stuff and should know good Modern Jive when they see it.


    SwingSwingSwing

  18. #58
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    and surely people who take dance to the level of the C2D judges are the best people to judge an amateur event like C2D ?

  19. #59
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SwingSwingSwing
    Gus, why should this matter? Nigel & Nina are recognised as expert Modern Jivers and are more than qualifed to judge a Modern Jive event (IMHO).
    SwingSwingSwing
    Hey .... I'm not having a go at them ... but don't you think that for a Modern Jive event there must be some more Modern Jive specialists who are competent to judge?

    As I've said before, I thought that the 2002 C2D line up of judges put all other dance competitions to shame ... but I wonder who else there is of a similar standard?

  20. #60
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
    and surely people who take dance to the level of the C2D judges are the best people to judge an amateur event like C2D ?
    Daft question ... but whats "amateur" about C2D?

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