Ceroc UK Championships 2003

[Jayne]

[start rant, take blood pressure pills]

I've just been reading the rules for the Cabaret section of the champs (just for general interest, you understand) and I quote:

The lead and follow aspect of the dance must clearly be demonstrated

Am I missing the point completely but how on earth do you demonstrate lead and follow in a fully choreographed routine that you've spent months rehearsing???

someone please tell me I've missed the boat.

[end rant, calm down]

just wondering
Jayne
*sigh*

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jayne


The lead and follow aspect of the dance must clearly be demonstrated

Am I missing the point completely but how on earth do you demonstrate lead and follow in a fully choreographed routine that you've spent months rehearsing???
Jayne
*sigh*

Jayne, worry not ... I can't remember the last time that rule has been applied by judges even in freestyle

[DavidB]

Originally posted by David Bradley
Firstly the Open Category will be run as two heats of 5 couples dancing to two tracks, one modern, one classic, of different bpm. There will then be a final of 5 couples dancing to two tracks etc.

Good idea

The Open is not an aerials category...there is just the option of including up to 4 aerials per track. We have included this category and the option of aerials because of feedback from the last couple of Champs....this it seems is what the people want!

I'm all for an open category - just don't like the aerials. Given the number of irresponsible idiots who do aerials at Ceroc nights, this does not surprise me that it was asked for.

The Open Category is also an platform for advanced modern jivers who want to show off their aerial skills. This is not a specialist aerials competition.

What is the difference?

Also, the Showcase was originally a category in which dancers could showcase a different gendre of dance, i.e. if a couple wanted to do a classical ballet piece then they could. There have been more and more Modern Jive based Showcase submissions over the last couple of years which has lead to the original concept being eroded.

So why not have a 'Modern Jive Showcase' and a separate 'Cabaret' division (ie anything but jive). Or is the idea not to promote Modern Jive as a medium for doing choreographed routines???

It is a shame the rules are not consistent in all the competitions around the country, and instead you are expected to put together a different routine for every event.

This year all Showcase submissions will be vetted to ensure that the quality of content is maintained and that the widest possible spread of style/concepts are represented.

No problem with that - except who does the vetting? And when and how? Is it done before, or on the day? Do you have to submit a video?

Also just incase your interested there are only a few places left in both categories so sign up quick if your thinking of entering.

The Open is too dangerous. And the Showcase seems to be a very expensive way of getting a video of your routine. I'll just go as a spectator.

Ultimately it is Ceroc's competition. They have every right to run is as they see fit. I might not like it myself, but at least they have taken note of what some people would like. If they want an Open division with aerials, it is their choice. If they want to have a cross-dressing, same-sex aerials division judged purely on bad taste, they can. (And you thought photos were bad - imagine the video...)

David

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Jayne
rules for the Cabaret section :
The lead and follow aspect of the dance must clearly be demonstrated
Am I missing the point completely but how on earth do you demonstrate lead and follow in a fully choreographed routine that you've spent months rehearsing???

In exactly the same way that some men try to lead in a class, even when the ladies know what is coming next.

I can see the idea of what they want - predominantly Ceroc lead/follow type moves.

I wonder what would happen if one of the men forgets part of the routine, and the lady drags him through for a few seconds? Do you get disqualified.

It will be an interesting one for the judges.

David

[Will]

Interesting post DavidB

A couple of small points that I'd make are that I think there is a difference between an Open Catagory where Airpsteps are allowed and an Airsteps Catagory in it's own right. I can't remember if you were at Amir's a few weeks ago when David & Bryony did there Airsteps routine from the Isle of Wight. That was an Airsteps routine through and through, I doubt you'd see anything like that in an Open Catagory.

I totally agree with you about the danger of idiots doing their Airsteps at a normal ceroc night, but I think that it's a bit harsh to label the Open Competition itself as 'Dangerous' when there are only 5 couples per heat. I mean come on man, have you seen the size of that dance floor.

(Imagine though if by some miracle there was a massive collision - It could turn into a massive ruck and we could all pitch in.... and then they could play chants of 'Jerry... Jerry... Jerry over the P.A. A great day out IMHO )

[Jayne]

Originally posted by DavidB
I wonder what would happen if one of the men forgets part of the routine, and the lady drags him through for a few seconds? Do you get disqualified.
David

The answer should be "no". The rules state that the lead and follow aspect of the dance must be demonstrated, but does not stipulate how that must be done. In this situation the girl is leading and he's following. OK so it's not "normal" but then again rule seven says that points will be awarded for innovative choreography and a female lead is (albeit arguably) innovative choreography.

(I admit that some days I just wanna pick fights. )

Jayne

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Jayne
The answer should be "no". The rules state that the lead and follow aspect of the dance must be demonstrated, but does not stipulate how that must be done. In this situation the girl is leading and he's following. OK so it's not "normal" but then again rule seven says that points will be awarded for innovative choreography and a female lead is (albeit arguably) innovative choreography.

You must be a lawyer!

But now I can't wait for this to happen, and for someone to use this argument.

David

[Jayne]

Originally posted by DavidB

You must be a lawyer!
But now I can't wait for this to happen, and for someone to use this argument.
David

That thought went through my head as I was typing it...

My flat mate at uni was a law student and whenever we asked her about something the reply always started "It depends which way you argue it but...."

Anyone wanna give me something to pick holes in??

Jayne

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Will
A couple of small points that I'd make are that I think there is a difference between an Open Catagory where Airpsteps are allowed and an Airsteps Catagory in it's own right. I can't remember if you were at Amir's a few weeks ago when David & Bryony did there Airsteps routine from the Isle of Wight. That was an Airsteps routine through and through, I doubt you'd see anything like that in an Open Catagory.

I was there. They did a very nice Showcase routine (ie own music, choreographed, lifts allowed.)

As far as I can remember, Airsteps competitions are organisers music, no choreography, minimum number of aerials.

And the Open is organisers music, no choreography, up to 4 airsteps allowed.

So the only difference is that you don't have to do aerials. But given that David Bradley states "The Open Category is also an platform for advanced modern jivers who want to show off their aerial skills", most people are likely to do aerials.

I wonder how a couple who do no airsteps will fare?

I totally agree with you about the danger of idiots doing their Airsteps at a normal ceroc night, but I think that it's a bit harsh to label the Open Competition itself as 'Dangerous' when there are only 5 couples per heat. I mean come on man, have you seen the size of that dance floor.

They once held an invitational Rock'n'Roll competition on that floor, and they said it was only just big enough for 2 couples at a time.

If couples were stationary, then there may be just enough room. However a lot of Ceroc dancers do travelling moves. Some common moves (eg the floor-sweeper) take a lot of room if you do them will. And most aerials take a lot of room if something goes wrong. You might start of with plenty of room, but not when you are half way through the song.

Virtually everyone I've seen doing aerials in the UK has enough problems simply trying to do the moves that they cannot take enough notice of what is going on around them.

It is only my opinion, but I think it is too dangerous.

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by Gus

Raising a few points raised earlier ... could you advise who the judges will be?............ I can only speak for myself when I say the major decision point would be the calibre of the judges ..... so who are they

Now ... I may be being malicious (OK ... more malicious than usual) but as ODA it does seem odd that Ceroc HQ seems reticent to reveal who they will have judging this prestigious competition .......... any ideas why??

[TheTramp]

Maybe they:

a. Haven't seen your post yet

or

b. Haven't decided on the judges yet.

ODA (in training)

Steve

[Will]

Do they normally disclose who the judges will be then? I don't think they did last year.

Last year the judges were made up of the more senior and experienced Ceroc teachers on the whole. You never agree with every decision the judges make, but I thought that Ceroc made a pretty good job of it last year on the whole.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Will
Do they normally disclose who the judges will be then? I don't think they did last year.

True ... Ceroc didn't, Chance 2 Dance do though .... well at least usually ... noticed they've not posted them on their web site yet.

Last year the judges were made up of the more senior and experienced Ceroc teachers on the whole.

Uuuummmm ... don't think thats quite right I know a number of 'senior' instructors who either don't want to do it or simply weren't asked. There were a number of teachers asked who were very new teachers. I come back to my earlier question .... if you were competing, wouldn't you expect to be judged by someone you regarded as an experienced competitor so that you had some faith in what they knew they were looking at? {Being ODA of course }

[TheTramp]

*Gulp* This post takes me past Franck, and makes me (probably briefly) the top poster. In post count only though....

if you were competing, wouldn't you expect to be judged by someone you regarded as an experienced competitor so that you had some faith in what they knew they were looking at

Ummm. Since ceroc teachers can't enter freestyle competitions (until now), how could any of them be an experienced competitor.

Have to admit, I'm not sure how I'd go about selecting judges if I was running a competition (which I won't be). It's very difficult - since I'm sure that the best dancers wouldn't necessarily make the best judges (in the same way that the best dancers don't always make the best teachers).

Someone who has enough knowledge to make a decision, along with total objectivity and no personal issues/interests with any of the competitors would be hard to find. Finding 6 (or however many you want), would be impossible I think, unless you went totally outside the modern jive dance scene.

I wonder how they select the judges for the American competitions (David???)

Steve

[PeterL]

I think most people who compete, do so for the fun only and have no aspirations, expectations of winning.

Though this said having 6 judges should iron out any individual issues/interests with any of the competitors.

At the end of the day Chance2dance are supplying a venue where many great dancers get together and have fun, for most modern jivers we don't really mind who wins as long as we have a great weekend and with that many great dancers in one place it would be difficult not to.

[TheTramp]

Oh. Meant to say.

I really think that in all competitions, all of the judges marks should be visible afterwards. I know it's been talked about in various circles for a long time, and I really can't see why it's not done. If anyone can tell me why the judges marks aren't made public, I'd be very interested to hear the reasons.

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
.....If anyone can tell me why the judges marks aren't made public, I'd be very interested to hear the reasons.

Steve

Fair point but as ODA should point out the other side ......

Although some competitiors DO take the event seriously (after all, it is a competition) ... SOME take it far too seriously .... at the Bristol 2001 (I think) event one of the judges was Ann (as in ex-Roger & Ann). A nicer person you couldn't wish to meet. However, one competitor didn't get the result he wanted and proceded to personaly lambast her .... upsetting her a fair bit. The sad truth is that there are some big egos out there and I've heard them spouting off about how hard done to they were ... even though they are patently cr*p. So some protection for the judges may be required.

Having said that ... putting forward the other view ... I've seen some judging decision that were complete shockers .... and like many of the audience I would have loved to know what was going through the judges mind. I wouldn't then want to personaly argue the toss with the judges ("the judges decision is final") ... but at least we would know why!

[Gus]

Originally posted by PeterL
I think most people who compete, do so for the fun only and have no aspirations, expectations of winning...........for most modern jivers we don't really mind who wins as long as we have a great weekend and with that many great dancers in one place it would be difficult not to.

Yup ... totaly agree ... but it is a COMPETITION .... and the C2D event is for the best dancers to compete .... Although the majority are there for the experince and spectacle ... there are about 50 or more dancers there taking it pretty seriously and that shouldn't be held against them ... in fact I would hope that the hard work and dedication they put in should be lauded. There are dancers spending significant amounts of cash on professional coaching, studio time and practicing three or four time a week. All that adds up to promoting high standards and entertaining the watching public.

[TheTramp]

I agree that I wouldn't want to put the judges 'at risk' of personal attacks.

I would publish the results on the web site, but not put the judges names alongside the marks. So then each competitor could see their results in each of the areas marked in (technical, musicality etc.), for every single round they were in, but not know which particular judge awarded them the marks (hopefully, the marks would be similar from each judge).

If any competitor approached a judge and gave any form of verbal harrassment for any decision, that person would be banned from any further events I organised, and I would probably pass on the details to every other competition organiser.

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by Will
You never agree with every decision the judges make, but I thought that Ceroc made a pretty good job of it last year on the whole.

Strange thing ... having seen a preview tape of the finals of the Intermediate and Advanced categories for 2002, up to a week ago I would have taken great issue with you. However, having said that, having had time to watch the Advanced competition a fair few times, got to admit my original view was wrong.

Still got my reservations about the Intermediate result, and cannot belive that Clayton and Janine weren't placed, BUT it proved to me just how wrong initial impressions can be.