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  • Top Salsa Teacher

    9 17.65%
  • Top Lindy Teacher

    5 9.80%
  • Top Tango Teacher

    23 45.10%
  • Top WCS Teacher

    27 52.94%
  • Styling & Musicality Workshops

    43 84.31%
  • Only one teacher

    4 7.84%
  • No teachers - social only

    3 5.88%
  • Sat & Sun Only

    26 50.98%
  • A Full Weekend (Fri to Mon)

    18 35.29%
  • Silly Idea

    1 1.96%
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Thread: Advance Weekender

  1. #21
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive Long
    I can understand the desire to teach more complex and subtle dance "things". To deliver the class at the pace necessary to get through the material - your dancers have to be of a certain technical and "repertoire" standard. I understand this.
    Well in that case, you need selection. It's either official (medals, tests etc, which we probably don't like), or unofficial.

    You can't have it both ways.

    But I fail to see what the "greater" benefit of getting the "MJ Invitation-Only All-Stars" together would be - but maybe I am missing the point of Minnie's proposal.
    I don't know... the best will get better. That will certainly benefit those that get pleasure from progression. There will probably be some knock on benefit to those that dance with the attenders subsequently, and the teachers and taxis among them may be able to pass on some tips.

    But why does there have to be a "Greater" benefit?

    Sorry for going on - and I have probably over-reacted - but the invitation-only idea, even if done with the best intentions, hits all kinds of negative buttons for me.
    I don't understand any reason for this other than sour grapes, I'm afraid.

    I'm a beginner WCS dancer. If I heard about an advanced WCS weekend, invitation only, and I wasn't invited (obviously), I'd think, fab, good luck to them - nothing negative at all.

    If I heard about the equivalent MJ weekend, and I wasn't invited, I'd be miffed. But I'd have to put up with it, and improve in time for the next one, or just resign myself to the fact that in the absence of a nationwide medals and tests system, knowledge of who's good has to be word of mouth, and sometimes that doesn't work with perfect fairness.

    None of that should mean that the best aren't allowed to get away from it all and get some intensive advanced teaching once in a while.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    ..if I was going to spend as much money as this on something where the theme was advanced dancing, I'd want the emphasis to be much more on the teaching than the freestyle, unlike the other weekenders - I wouldn't stay up all night dancing, .
    Sorry, didn't make that very clear ...

    The theme most definitely would be on the advance teaching, that is why I might have to look beyond the UK to find suitable teachers that could teach us something new.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    I wouldn't stay up all night dancing, to be too tired to actually learn anything the next day.
    Might have to allow for a late morning starts to take this into account, can't cut the dancing time down

    eg times - workshop times
    11am to 1pm and 2pm to 7pm
    dancing 10pm to whatever .............

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    ..... I'd want to know, in advance, a lot more detail about what was actually going to be taught and by whom, and I'd also want a way of being confident that my money wasn't going to be wasted.
    Most definitely
    Full details of the event (including the teaches and their TEACHING history) will be advertised / emailed / circulated BEFORE you make your decision

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Because if my personal emphasis is on the teaching, I would end up extremely disappointed if (a) the teaching wasn't very good or (b) the class ended up being pitched at the wrong level for me. I mean, there's no way I'd go to an advanced Tango or WCS because I'm nowhere near good enough, so I wouldn't want to hold the rest of the class back. But I would go to an advanced jive class and expect to be able to at least cope - and I'd be really annoyed if the content had to be dumbed down to cater for people that shouldn't be there.

    So I guess the issue is how to guarantee the level. Invitation only would do it of course. But of course then we'd have to deal with all the hard-done-bys. But maybe that's a price worth paying.
    Hmmm..... this could cause a problem, might need to think more on that one. Might be an idea only to have TWO different dance styles/classes with two different levels, and you could choose which level you feel comfortable with, or let the teacher select the levels

    BTW the teaching WILL be good however, you may not like the style of the teaching, that is something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    ....So I guess the issue is how to guarantee the level. Invitation only would do it of course. But of course then we'd have to deal with all the hard-done-bys. But maybe that's a price worth paying.
    This is definitely the hardest decision .... I would have to trust people to be honest, or pass the buck (see above)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    ........ But of course then we'd have to deal with all the hard-done-bys. But maybe that's a price worth paying.
    The MONEY THING - to have the best teachers and a decent venue it would normally cost mega bucks - hwever, the good thing is I will be doing it and therefore it will really be non-profit making. For those who know me, know this will be true. As long as I am not out of pocket, I am quite happy to organise the whole thing.

    It has been a kinda dream of mine which I have been thinking about for a couple of years now (since the Cruise)

    One problem ........ I don't want to upset Organsers who think I am cashing in on their profession - if that happens, I will quite happily step back and let them do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    Even numbers of ladies and men?
    Most definitely and I will make sure there is NO CHEATING
    Last edited by Minnie M; 24th-September-2005 at 02:20 PM.


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  3. #23
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Perhaps another way to approach this is to think about why non-advanced dancers should be excluded and address those issues. As far as I can see, the only reason not to want people of any level in a class is that you may get them in rotation and their lack of competence may impair your ability to pick up/practice what's being taught. So if you can solve the rotation issue - rotate in small groups, fixed pairs, whatever - then I see no reason to have to try and assess suitability for entry. The classes can still be pitched at a suitable level of difficulty and it be made clear in publicity and from the stage that no concessions to beginners/intermediates will be made in the content of the class or the rate at which it's presented. Sink or swim.

    I would not make the cut for an event based on an ability assessment so far and I am not sure that an advanced weekender would be something to strive for - I dance for my own enjoyment. My enjoyment is influenced heavily by how I perceive my partner is enjoying the dance (or otherwise). I like to improve my dancing so that my partners enjoy the dance more and thus I enjoy the dance more. Having said that, I did attend an intermediate Improvers (formerly know as Advanced!) workshop a couple of months back.

    This is getting a bit rambly but I will just end by saying I did not book a place on a dips leans and seducers workshop after emailing the teacher asking what she expected the standard to be. Whilst she did not really give a definitive yes/no I made the decision that I wasn't ready for it at that point and I strongly feel that if people pay £30 or whatever for a workshop there is a responsibility on those attending to ensure they are not a long way from the standard needed. Others (based on my experience at some workshops and anecdotally) clearly don't feel the same responsibility and it is these people that in a roundabout way have given rise to this thread.

    Robert

  4. #24
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by robd
    Perhaps another way to approach this is to think about why non-advanced dancers should be excluded
    But then it wouldn't be a different type of weekend

    There has never been a weekend in Modern Jive that has concentrated purely for the Advance Dancer (that includes the teachers which I sincerely hope fit that category)

    As I have said in my first post, this has been done within the Lindy scene and it worked really well. The UK is now the home for Modern Jive, and if our top dancers aren't catered for ocassionally, they may eventually change their dance style (many have done this already)

    I hardly ever do MJ workshops at weekenders mainly because I am happy with my MJ and am not interested in learning any more moves (if it is not leadable then I am not interested) therefore I am paying purely for the evening dances, pound for pound that works out a lot of money.

    However, to be taught a new style with fellow dancers at my level OR to be taught styling and musicallity by a master ............. say no more


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  5. #25
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by robd
    As far as I can see, the only reason not to want people of any level in a class is that you may get them in rotation and their lack of competence may impair your ability to pick up/practice what's being taught.
    Also class size. I defy any teacher to give advanced instruction in a huge hall with 500 or more people in it. The teacher can't see enough of what's going on for enough of the students, and the students will end up not being able to see properly. It happens enough in ordinary intermediate classes, let alone something more difficult.
    So if you can solve the rotation issue - rotate in small groups, fixed pairs, whatever - then I see no reason to have to try and assess suitability for entry.
    Who decides who's in which groups though? As soon as you make it self-selecting you're back to the same problem.
    The classes can still be pitched at a suitable level of difficulty and it be made clear in publicity and from the stage that no concessions to beginners/intermediates will be made in the content of the class or the rate at which it's presented. Sink or swim.
    This is necessary but not sufficient, in my view. You'd still get people trying and failing to do the class, and holding the rest up. If the class was entirely non-rotating, then fair enough, since if you have a partner then you can sink or swim without affecting others.
    I strongly feel that if people pay £30 or whatever for a workshop there is a responsibility on those attending to ensure they are not a long way from the standard needed. Others (based on my experience at some workshops and anecdotally) clearly don't feel the same responsibility and it is these people that in a roundabout way have given rise to this thread.
    ...

    If only...

  6. #26
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    or let the teacher select the levels
    There's the reason for the Friday night...

    Get the teachers to dance with all the punters, say for a minute each, and if they don't pass muster they get relegated to the morning classes...



    Er, not sure that would really work
    One problem ........ I don't want to upset Organsers who think I am cashing in on their profession - if that happens, I will quite happily step back and let them do it.
    Unfortunately, the recent spate of Cambers and all the debate that followed it suggests that they may very well react like that.

  7. #27
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    There's the reason for the Friday night...

    Get the teachers to dance with all the punters, say for a minute each, and if they don't pass muster they get relegated to the morning classes...



    Er, not sure that would really work
    The whistles are giving even this blonde one a clue that you're not being entirely serious there

    But actually, I quite like the idea of the Friday freestyle being 'open', and being given some advice on what classes might be most beneficial to me - although a minute doesn't really seem enough to get a true idea of someone's level, it sometimes takes that long to get used to someone you've never danced with before (or is that just me? ). The main reason I would be regretful at being excluded from an 'advanced' event is that I would love to *watch* - I do learn from watching better dancers and enjoy doing so.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Get the teachers to dance with all the punters
    I will give the teachers a 'contract' which states they must not refuse a dance and must spend at least 2 hours social dancing each evening at which time they could (if you wish to know - after the dance of course) give out advice, something like a 3 minute free private lesson

    The evening dancing to be purely for you to chill out and have a good dance with your equals, and maybe practise you new skills with the teachers or partners

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Unfortunately, the recent spate of Cambers and all the debate that followed it suggests that they may very well react like that.
    yes that could happen, but as I am not hoping to make money out of it, I am quite happy to let them do it. However, if they followed my rules of who and what, financially the dancers will be the loosers

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    although a minute doesn't really seem enough to get a true idea of someone's level
    For the experts I am thinking of, a minute will be enough


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  9. #29
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    although a minute doesn't really seem enough to get a true idea of someone's level
    It's easily long enough, in my view. Ten seconds is usually more than long enough to get a pretty reasonable idea.

    The main reason I would be regretful at being excluded from an 'advanced' event is that I would love to *watch* - I do learn from watching better dancers and enjoy doing so.
    It's only the advanced lessons that anyone should be excluded from...

    .. providing you didn't want to actually dance with the advanced dancers during the freestyle...



    Or is that a different thread?


  10. #30
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    The main reason I would be regretful at being excluded from an 'advanced' event is that I would love to *watch* - I do learn from watching better dancers and enjoy doing so.
    Another idea ..... thanks .... will have to have a video of the event

    Just noticed we have a 'silly idea' voter, is that because there is no Blues Expert listed

    Seriously though, could you please explain why you think it is a silly idea, these sort of comments are as important as the positive ones
    Last edited by Minnie M; 24th-September-2005 at 03:43 PM.


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  11. #31
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    It's only the advanced lessons that anyone should be excluded from...

    .. providing you didn't want to actually dance with the advanced dancers during the freestyle...



    Or is that a different thread?

    *(wo)manfully ignores s *

    I thought the whole point was for the grown up dancers to be able to enjoy dancing with their peers and have a break from those of us who can't spot breaks in advance or have other obnoxious habits...

    Which actually seems fair enough to me.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    *(wo)manfully ignores s *

    I thought the whole point was for the grown up dancers to be able to enjoy dancing with their peers and have a break from those of us who can't spot breaks in advance or have other obnoxious habits...

    Which actually seems fair enough to me.
    No NO NO ......
    That is Not the point of this weekend
    It has nothing to do with that, it is to do with the more experienced dancer getting some benifit from a weekend designed around them


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  13. #33
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Sorry Minnie, I was being flippant, I know that was not your intention

    But you did suggest that it should be an invitation only event. Which, as I have said, seems utterly fair to me. All other sports have leagues, MJ is so inclusive because it doesn't. For advanced dancers to have the same opportunity for learning as beginners/new intermediates, you would necessarily have to 'exclude' beginners/new intermediates from holding things up. For one weekend. Not forever. And why not? - I'm totally with Chicklet on this one.

  14. #34
    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    If the class was entirely non-rotating, then fair enough, since if you have a partner then you can sink or swim without affecting others.

    ...

    If only...

    I think this could be a possible solution to part of the problem.

    I would class this sort of weekend, as mentioned, more as a learning opportunity rather than a social thing like most weekenders. Im not saying you cannot socialise but if you advise entrants to do fixed partners in the workshops then each person knows that they will be dancing with someone who is both 'advanced' and comfortable.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    have blanked out this post as I think I have said enough
    Last edited by Minnie M; 24th-September-2005 at 04:52 PM.


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    I am getting upset defending what I thought was a good idea

    It is aimed for the minority - the experienced/advance dancers - and at this stage it is only an idea - thanks for all the very good suggestions via PMs too

    Why can't the more experience dancer have a weekend designed around them without other people trying to justify it or condemning it

    More constructive comments please
    Last edited by Minnie M; 24th-September-2005 at 05:12 PM.


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  17. #37
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    Why can't the more experience dancer have a weekend designed around them without other people trying to justify it or condemning it
    Because people find it easier to complain about elitism than become better dancers.

    Having said that I think much of the comment here has been broadly constructive. Even Clive saying that he doesn't like it is fair enough - you don't have to agree with him, just string him up by his toenails if he tries to scupper the plan....

  18. #38
    Registered User Clive Long's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    I am getting upset defending what I thought was a good idea

    It is aimed for the minority - the experienced/advance dancers - and at this stage it is only an idea - thanks for all the very good suggestions via PMs too

    Why can't the more experience dancer have a weekend designed around them without other people trying to justify it or condemning it

    More constructive comments please
    This is spooky!

    You must have been reading my mind Minnie.

    Your event - you organise it anyway you want - for the benefit of who you want.

    I am grateful for the events you organised - and I haven't organised any event - so that says a lot.

    A little story. I just went back to tennis after a loooong time. I wasn't hopeless but my serve was poor and I produced 3 double-fault services. To compensate I hit some corking top-spin forehands. After the game the guy pointed out my double-faults (as if I didn't know )
    His message? Their game was affected / spoiled by some basic error on my part - but he came up with a constructive suggestion. I didn't take it that he was trying to belittle me - even if he was - because I took something constructive from what he said. My point is (there is one) - I can understand that the presence of someone of my standard of dancing or poorer at the weekend proposed by Minnie would be to the detriment of others on the course. So I shouldn't be there.

    I thought Ducasi's "diplomatic" words - when a teacher knows the applicant is too weak for a dance course - were spot on. You offfer them a more appropriate alternative.

    I stand by my first post. My second was pretty offensive.

    Clive

    Edit: ChrisA: "Even Clive saying that he doesn't like it is fair enough ". You make me sound like a zealot young man. I didn't say (I don't think I said) I didn't like the idea of the course - I thought it was positive - nowhere did I mention elitism - my only beef was with the "invitation only" dimension. Probably says more about me than the proposal. You and I agree there must be some way to define the standard so those who benefit from the event intend, and those who wouldn't, don't. But as I have written above, Minnie's event, her criteria,

    P.P.S. Can you string me up by my fingernails anyway? Niiiiiice
    Last edited by Clive Long; 24th-September-2005 at 05:33 PM.

  19. #39
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    Why can't the more experience dancer have a weekend designed around them without other people trying to justify it or condemning it

    More constructive comments please
    As someone who definitely falls outside anybody's definition of "advanced" or "experienced", I didn't feel it was appropriate for me to give much comment...

    But, like many others I think how you choose who to invite on this workshop is going to leave some people hurt, wondering why they were left out.

    Perhaps one solution would be to open it to anyone, but ask them to supply a letter of recommendation if they are not already well-known in the MJ world.

    I can think of some down-sides to this idea, but at least no-one could say "why wasn't I invited? "
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  20. #40
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Advance Weekender

    Was going to say silly idea but read the thread all the way though and can see it has a lot of merits

    You can as a man usually tell how good someone is in 15/20 seconds

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