A new H******s?

[Paul F]

First and foremost I am not advertising a night as it doesnt exist yet so Im hoping this doesnt get deleted

Im wondering if it would be a good idea for someone (not me) to step up to the plate and organise a replacement for the now-changed hipsters.

As far as I can tell London , and quite frankly anywhere, does not have a night that caters exclusively to the more experienced dancer. I believe there are nights that run advanced classes HOWEVER these classes also target beginners with beginner classes.


What I would love to see is:

* Decent venue - doesnt have to be a palace
* 1 or 2 advanced/speciality classes in one hall.
* West Coast Swing in the second hall - the potential is there for this to really grow and the 2 rooms really brings an added 'x-factor' (sorry)
* 2 hours of freestyle
* and any extra things like free parking etc.

I can only speak from a personal viewpoint but I would happily sit in , over an hour, of surrey traffic to get into London if such a night ran and i am definately not the only one.
Plus, with this forum, the organiser has an immediate mechanism to target the advanced dancers.

I really really want to see such a night created once again but is it viable?

I suppose the main question is who would teach these advanced lessons. Any ideas? There has to be well respected teachers in the area.

Ok, so if it is viable, is there anybody that wants to take up the challenge?
You would have 1 customer......me

[Feelingpink]

I'm all for more choice ... but my first thought on reading your post was to think that there is just what you want - it just happens to be on two separate nights. Jango on a Monday has fab lessons with Will & Kate (challenging and very friendly) and a nice bunch of people at Kent House, Hammersmith, then the same venue on a Wednesday for Cat & Lee teaching West Coast. You'd just have to deal with the traffic on two nights Oh, and there's free parking.

Jango does not have a beginner's lesson, although the WCS night does.

If anyone was to set up a single night (in London?) as you've suggested, they would be competing against these.

[MartinHarper]

... a night that caters exclusively to the more experienced dancer. I believe there are nights that run advanced classes HOWEVER these classes also target beginners with beginner classes.

What benefits would you get from a night catering exclusively to experienced dancers, over one that caters to experienced dancers, but also provides beginner classes?

[Paul F]

Not sure how to do that multiple quote thing (or just too lazy ) so will just write here.

FP - To sit in traffic 2 nights a week. Nooooooooooo!
Jango was in my mind when i wrote this but the size of the venue would immediately restrict the numbers attending.
Also, after speaking to other dancers, simply calling it Jango would deter them. I disagree that this would be competition. Jango is unique.
The wednesday WCS swing night would benefit hugely by relocating to a second room in the new night. Cat was mentioning that kent house are becoming problematic with the pricing

MH - I would like to see the same benefit as the original Hipsters had. It sounds terrible and i hate myself for saying it but ...... no beginners class means no beginners?
< cue time for a change in thread theme >
If for no other reason there are LOADS of beginners classes. Why have another one.

[Feelingpink]

... To sit in traffic 2 nights a week. Nooooooooooo!
Jango was in my mind when i wrote this but the size of the venue would immediately restrict the numbers attending.
Also, after speaking to other dancers, simply calling it Jango would deter them. I disagree that this would be competition.
The wednesday WCS swing night would benefit hugely by relocating to a second room in the new night. ...

Fair enough you don't want to sit in traffic for two nights (although I happily travel from east London to west for Kent House, a journey of more than an hour each way)!

Why does the name "Jango" deter dancers? And why woudn't it be competition? It's always a place to go for very good music and great dancers as well as the lessons.

How would the Wednesday WCS swing night benefit from being in a second room rather than on its own? Do you think some MJers might 'convert'?

Fair enough too about no MJ beginners class, but I think because of WCS being less well established, it needs one.

Reading this back, I'm aware that the post sounds quite negative, but it's not meant to be - I really would like to see other nights available, but also want them to succeed and perhaps they have to find/carve out their niche.

[Paul F]

Fair enough you don't want to sit in traffic for two nights (although I happily travel from east London to west for Kent House, a journey of more than an hour each way)!

Why does the name "Jango" deter dancers? And why woudn't it be competition? It's always a place to go for very good music and great dancers as well as the lessons.

How would the Wednesday WCS swing night benefit from being in a second room rather than on its own? Do you think some MJers might 'convert'?

Fair enough too about no MJ beginners class, but I think because of WCS being less well established, it needs one.

Reading this back, I'm aware that the post sounds quite negative, but it's not meant to be - I really would like to see other nights available, but also want them to succeed and perhaps they have to find/carve out their niche.

Ah! Apologies as I wasnt very clear.
Yes, the WCS night would definately need a beginners class. Yes also to the point about converting the MJ'er into a WCS'er (amazing what you can do with an 'er ). If WCS is to grow one of the best ways IMHO would be to attract the MJ dancers who may want that extra challenge. Plenty of organisers are doing this with workshops already.

As for Jango - it has its niche. From what I hear it is its own unique style. Im sure people will travel for both. At the end of the day Jango could never attract that many people due to the size of the venue. If it relocated then it may be able to run another class alongside and , hey presto, we have our new night.
In the mean time I think the potential is there to attract 100/150/200+ people to a different night.

As the saying goes - its all in a name. The name Jango will make a lot of people immediately think of Tango. MJ has a huge base on which to draw and has the associated 'comfort zone' that people are familier with.
When people have chatted to me about getting a bit bored with their regular nights I have suggested Jango. Immediately, upon mentioning the word Tango in my explanation, their reaction changes. I have explained to people its a fusion but the name is still there and that will frighten people.
However in another sense this is good as it maintains that uniqueness which will see both nights thrive together.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Cat was mentioning that kent house are becoming problematic with the pricing

Cat's main problem with the pricing was that she needs more people to come along. There's still room for more people at Kent House, as you know - I don't think anywhere else is going to be cheaper, especially if it's a larger venue.

Much as we both enjoy WCS, I can't see any hard facts to support saying "the potential is there for this to really grow". Not until Cat's class fills Kent House on a regular basis.

[Paul F]

Cat's main problem with the pricing was that she needs more people to come along. There's still room for more people at Kent House, as you know - I don't think anywhere else is going to be cheaper, especially if it's a larger venue.

Much as we both enjoy WCS, I can't see any hard facts to support saying "the potential is there for this to really grow". Not until Cat's class fills Kent House on a regular basis.

Again , I have to disagree sorry

When it comes to cost of hiring rooms or halls I cant really comment as i dont know but the issue of exposure is a critical one IMO.

In its hayday Hipsters' Lindy classes attracted so many people from the MJ world including me for about 2 lessons ) purely because they went downstairs and saw what it was. Its this exposure that WCS simply doesnt have.
By combining it with an MJ night you have the exposure, the reduced risk of double booking (as you wouldnt have the stage and usage of a main hall) and the ?possibility? of a reduced rent but again i dont know things like cost. I can only guess that its going to cheper to hire a seconday room than it would be to hire a venue.
The main hall would, again like hipsters, be for the MJ.

To sell anything you have to get the word out. This would be a great way of doing it for WCS

The reason i throw the word potential in there is due to the fact that so many people seem to have an interest in finding out what it is. You only have to look at the weekend workshops and the posts from people wanting classes in other areas of the country. It again comes down to letting people see it or at least know where it is.

It has to be the better of the two options doesnt it?

[El Salsero Gringo]

The reason i throw the word potential in there is due to the fact that so many people seem to have an interest in finding out what it is. You only have to look at the weekend workshops and the posts from people wanting classes in other areas of the country.

Remember that people who post on the forum, and people who go to weekenders are a tiny, tiny, ultra-committed subset of the dancing public. Beyond that, even from those people who want to know what it is, only a small minority are going to be motivated to put in the time and effort to take it up properly, especially when they can go to the 'other room' for a dance they feel they already know.

I agree that exposure and publicity are needed before WCS would take off in a big way, but I suggest that it needs exposure to the general public - not within the MJ/Ceroc community. And the most likely way for that to happen is for someone to see a business opportunity a-la Ceroc, brush up it's image, change the name to something less 'specialist' and start getting publicity in the Sunday papers for this "trendy new partner dance that's sweeping all before it." (!). Just throwing in another room of classes at a new MJ venue isn't going to do diddly.

[Jon Brett]

* Decent venue - doesnt have to be a palace
* 1 or 2 advanced/speciality classes in one hall.
* West Coast Swing in the second hall
* 2 hours of freestyle
* and any extra things like free parking etc.

What you are quoting is EXACTLY what Hipsters Tuesdays did. Unfortunately, we (Nigel & I) found that although it seems like a really good idea on paper, in practice it just didn't work.

Personally, and I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for saying this, I don't think that West Coast Swing and Modern Jive work very well together, if at all.

What we found is that most WCS dancers need to ditch MJ for a while to learn the dance without getting confused. This did make them seem cliquey to the MJ dancers, but until they get the hang of WCS, they can't simply switch back and forth between WCS & MJ at random.

When Hipsters mixed MJ with Lindy it worked much better because most of the slower swing/lindy tunes are good MJ tunes.

When more dancers get the hang of WCS, and can dance well to faster tunes, then it will mix better with MJ.

I think that WCS will be massive in the UK. Mainly because it can be danced to the modern R&B tunes that are not ideal for MJ. But at the moment WCS is still very much in its infancy. Until there's a bit more experience out there, pure WCS nights are the way to go.

In two or three years, when there are enough experienced WCS-ers I reckon you're "ideal night" will work.

Jon

[Paul F]

Remember that people who post on the forum, and people who go to weekenders are a tiny, tiny, ultra-committed subset of the dancing public. Beyond that, even from those people who want to know what it is, only a small minority are going to be motivated to put in the time and effort to take it up properly, especially when they can go to the 'other room' for a dance they feel they already know.

I agree that exposure and publicity are needed before WCS would take off in a big way, but I suggest that it needs exposure to the general public - not within the MJ/Ceroc community. And the most likely way for that to happen is for someone to see a business opportunity a-la Ceroc, brush up it's image, change the name to something less 'specialist' and start getting publicity in the Sunday papers for this "trendy new partner dance that's sweeping all before it." (!). Just throwing in another room of classes at a new MJ venue isn't going to do diddly.

I would never expect it to attract classes of 100+ like MJ does. I doubt the main protagonists have the time to put in to do that.
I still think the most productive way would be to leech onto the advanced MJ night while advertising through the current means.

After seeing the lindy at hipsters I get the feeling that the flow of traffic , albeit small, will be going from the MJ into the WCS class.

[Paul F]

What you are quoting is EXACTLY what Hipsters Tuesdays did. Unfortunately, we (Nigel & I) found that although it seems like a really good idea on paper, in practice it just didn't work.

Personally, and I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for saying this, I don't think that West Coast Swing and Modern Jive work very well together, if at all.

What we found is that most WCS dancers need to ditch MJ for a while to learn the dance without getting confused. This did make them seem cliquey to the MJ dancers, but until they get the hang of WCS, they can't simply switch back and forth between WCS & MJ at random.

When Hipsters mixed MJ with Lindy it worked much better because most of the slower swing/lindy tunes are good MJ tunes.

When more dancers get the hang of WCS, and can dance well to faster tunes, then it will mix better with MJ.

I think that WCS will be massive in the UK. Mainly because it can be danced to the modern R&B tunes that are not ideal for MJ. But at the moment WCS is still very much in its infancy. Until there's a bit more experience out there, pure WCS nights are the way to go.

In two or three years, when there are enough experienced WCS-ers I reckon you're "ideal night" will work.

Jon

If I could give rep i would.

I was thinking about the music and transitions on the way to fleet last night and this is the only way i could think of that would mean it wouldnt work.
There are quite a lot of tunes that do cross over well though eg. mustang sally but again they are maybe too slow for jive.

Cant tell you how gutted i was to move down here and dind hipsters had closed. After the statements released I had assumed it was due to the fact that you guys couldnt make the journey any more.

Maybe the switching of styles IS too much a barrier. I just really want to see an advanced night return

[El Salsero Gringo]

I would never expect it to attract classes of 100+ like MJ does. I doubt the main protagonists have the time to put in to do that.
I still think the most productive way would be to leech onto the advanced MJ night while advertising through the current means.

As little as I know about business, I do believe that the most important thing is to be able to communicate to your potential customers, what the benefit *for them* is to buying your product. So just putting on a WCS class and hoping to osmose people away from MJ is unlikely to work. You'd have to really demonstrate *why* they should be learning a new style of dance, what it will do for them, and why it's worth the steep learning curve. Then it's a real business, and not just another dance class.

The same thing applies to your proposed new Hopsters evening. If the selling point is that it's for advanced dancers only you'd need to put a lot of effort into selling it as that - persuading people that they'll have more fun, get bashed less, have better music to dance to and so on. (Then of course you have to live up to it.) I can't see that just opening a new evening, billing it as 'advanced' and hoping everyone "advanced" will come along will do the trick.

There was a shop on Fulham Road which marketed itself primarily as "exclusive". They got a lot of publicity at the time they opened because you had to ring a doorbell before you were allowed in (even famous supermodels.) A shop assistant would look you up and down through the window and assess if you were their kind of customer before you could browse the exclusive, and presumably expensive, clothes. It went out of business in about six months. As far as I could see they failed to explain to anyone why they should want to subject themselves to this procedure - in other words they didn't sell the clothes as being worthy of that kind of exclusivity, they focused on the easy bit, and assumed that people would make the connection.

So if you are going to have a dance night that caters exclusively for advanced dancers - noting your own use of bold type - on what basis are you going to sell it to your potential customer base of advanced dancers?

[Lee]

As far as I can tell London , and quite frankly anywhere, does not have a night that caters exclusively to the more experienced dancer. I believe there are nights that run advanced classes HOWEVER these classes also target beginners with beginner classes.


What I would love to see is:

* Decent venue - doesnt have to be a palace
* 1 or 2 advanced/speciality classes in one hall.
* West Coast Swing in the second hall - the potential is there for this to really grow and the 2 rooms really brings an added 'x-factor' (sorry)
* 2 hours of freestyle
* and any extra things like free parking etc.

I started to think this a great idea, but then realised this would not work financially and would end up creating a large barrier between the good experienced dancers (notice i don't mention bad experienced dancers) and beginners. Although is this not already happening in every venue by the stage anyway.

Lee
I'm blonde, what's your excuse?
Copyright ‘LMC’

[CJ]

Am fully aware that the Tue night in Ealing is not Hipsters.

However, is it not an "advanced" night as such, with extended freestyle, etc? (albeit without the WCS element )

Perhaps, before you continue your theory that such a night does not exist, you could sample the Tue to see what it's all about?

If you choose this week, then I'll see you there...

[Paul F]

As little as I know about business, I do believe that the most important thing is to be able to communicate to your potential customers, what the benefit *for them* is to buying your product. So just putting on a WCS class and hoping to osmose people away from MJ is unlikely to work. You'd have to really demonstrate *why* they should be learning a new style of dance, what it will do for them, and why it's worth the steep learning curve. Then it's a real business, and not just another dance class.

The same thing applies to your proposed new Hopsters evening. If the selling point is that it's for advanced dancers only you'd need to put a lot of effort into selling it as that - persuading people that they'll have more fun, get bashed less, have better music to dance to and so on. (Then of course you have to live up to it.) I can't see that just opening a new evening, billing it as 'advanced' and hoping everyone "advanced" will come along will do the trick.

There was a shop on Fulham Road which marketed itself primarily as "exclusive". They got a lot of publicity at the time they opened because you had to ring a doorbell before you were allowed in (even famous supermodels.) A shop assistant would look you up and down through the window and assess if you were their kind of customer before you could browse the exclusive, and presumably expensive, clothes. It went out of business in about six months. As far as I could see they failed to explain to anyone why they should want to subject themselves to this procedure - in other words they didn't sell the clothes as being worthy of that kind of exclusivity.

So if you are going to have a dance night that caters exclusively for advanced dancers - noting your own use of bold type - on what basis are you going to sell it to your potential customer base of advanced dancers?

By exclusive I meant the lack of beginners classes. You would never be able to forceably ensure no beginners come in , although that brings with it many humerous images , but the advanced nature (and i would like to use a different word) would be there by implication surely?

As for selling the night. The current WCS advertising would carry on which may attract a lot of people meanwhile people simply seeing the dance will make a lot want to do it. Of that I am certian

I completely agree with what your saying about selling it as a business but without the time-consuming backing that a business needs other avenues have to be approached.

Im happy to accept if its not a viable way forward but i cant help but think it would work better than the current situation.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Plus, with this forum, the organiser has an immediate mechanism to target the advanced dancers.

I missed this bit originally, but be aware that Franck has (I think) a no advertising policy in place for anyone who doesn't hold the more expensive commercial membership, and that these memberships are no longer available and not being renewed as they expire.

(I think that's the Forum policy at the moment, right?)

[Paul F]

Am fully aware that the Tue night in Ealing is not Hipsters.

However, is it not an "advanced" night as such, with extended freestyle, etc?

Perhaps, before you continue your theory that such a night does not exist, you could sample the Tue to see what it's all about?

If you choose this week, then I'll see you there...

Funny you should mention that as I was going to go and have a go

I would love it if it turns out that this is the case (although it clashes with Farnham) but it was advertised as 1 intermediate class with freestyle by teachers that were a mystery.
It didnt grab me

hopefully meet you on tuesday though

[Paul F]

I missed this bit originally, but be aware that Franck has (I think) a no advertising policy in place for anyone who doesn't hold the more expensive commercial membership, and that these memberships are no longer available and not being renewed as they expire.

(I think that's the Forum policy at the moment, right?)

Thats a good point. I suppose it would have to be by word of mouth around the 'london scene' which may prove more difficult.

[El Salsero Gringo]

By exclusive I meant the lack of beginners classes. You would never be able to forceably ensure no beginners come in , although that brings with it many humerous images , but the advanced nature (and i would like to use a different word) would be there by implication surely?

As for selling the night. The current WCS advertising would carry on which may attract a lot of people meanwhile people simply seeing the dance will make a lot want to do it. Of that I am certian

It's only seeing US competition videos on the 'net that makes me want to try it - certainly almost nothing I've seen in two months of classes is particularly inspiring - not considering the time and effort involved in learning a new style of dance. And which current WCS advertising? Not very effective at the moment is it?

I completely agree with what your saying about selling it as a business but without the time-consuming backing that a business needs other avenues have to be approached.

I'm afraid that there are ways to get things going without much ready cash, but there aren't any ways to get things going without a lot of time and effort. Without the 'time-consuming backing' - it's not going to happen.

Im happy to accept if its not a viable way forward but i cant help but think it would work better than the current situation.

I don't doubt that it's possibly viable, but I think that finding the venue, teacher and deciding the format is the interesting, easy, 1% of what's needed. I don't accept that just putting the evening on and expecting dancers and their cash will flock to you is going to work. I would *love* to hear ideas for what goes into the other 99%, but I've no doubt that those that know ain't saying and vice versa.