Whether they do or not is not an issue. They are wearing a uniform and that should be it.
Please get your facts straight before entering into this argument. The St George's Cross pins that the prison officers were wearing were charity pins, in aid of a cancer research charity. Are you suggesting that the prison officers do not wear poppies in November, as it is not part of their uniform and they should be sorting their prison out?Originally Posted by DavidJames
Whether they do or not is not an issue. They are wearing a uniform and that should be it.
Well gosh, I'm just all upset now that those nice non-racist, non-rapist, charidee-supporting, lovely-smelling guards were all misunderstood.Originally Posted by TiggsTours
But the full quote is "Chief inspector of prisons Anne Owers said she had been told the pins were bought in support of a cancer charity."
(emphasis mine)
Now, I've Googled, but I can't find any cancer charity which provided St. George's cross pins - that's just the story she was told.
But, I've found a lot of stories about Wakefield Prison - for example, this BBC article about the prison guard who won the UK's highest-ever compensation award for unfair dismissal, after blowing the whistle about inmate abuse - apparently, she was treated as a "grass" after reporting claims prisoners were being bullied.
I'm not suggesting anything; I'm saying it.Originally Posted by TiggsTours
The prison guards at Wakefield are a bunch of thugs, and I don't trust anything they tell me. I'm going to start with the assumption that they're liars, and work from there.
And from an emotional point of view, I don't want these people using my country's flag - they are racists, and I don't like them.
Originally Posted by azande
Of course its a bloody issue. so you would band poppies and if not why not ??
Originally Posted by DavidJames
How much time did you spend in the prison ? I ASSUME you spent some time there to reach these conclusions ?
I would ban poppies or anything else that is not regulamentary (SP?) worn with a uniform. That's why is called a "UNIFORM".
When in civil clothes they can wear what the hell they want.
Originally Posted by azande
Once again we have stupid authorities getting overly "PC" when azande's reason should have been quite sufficient - and inflammatory media reporting creating the Himalayan mountain chain out of a grain of dust.
So, when police officers wear poppies, or even soldiers, or other members of our British forces, wear poppies, that is wrong then is it? I mean, its not part of the uniform. Perhaps the Salvation Army should stop wearing them too?Originally Posted by azande
Well, I'm just basing my evidence on the following publically-known facts:Originally Posted by stewart38
- They've just been rapped over the knuckles by an inspection for a number of problems including racism
- The principal prison officer has been charged with 4 rapes
- The one staff member who tried to alert the authorities was bullied, mistreated, then unfairly dismissed.
- There were 11 suicides there last year
Apart from that, I'm sure they're all lovely...
And I take it you know all the guards at Wakefield Prison personally, I mean, you must do, in order to be able to speak about them this way. Personally I prefer not to judge people that I do not know, or make sweeping generalisations about anything or anyone, I do not have first hand knowledge of. Perhaps I'm niaive? I'd rather be niaive, than an old cynic.Originally Posted by DavidJames
I just love seeing arguments get sidetracked to supply justification for the original point of view
Of course, I don't like taking part in them - 'cos I get as het up as everyone else. Been here, done this one :shrug:
*sets up popcorn stand*
Since you ask, it's probably better for the police not to wear poppies. The Army? Well, it's a military remembrance thing, so fair enough.Originally Posted by TiggsTours
The Salvation Army can wear whatever they like since it isn't (my) public money that funds them. They can beat the drum, tell me I'm a sinner and try to persuade me to go to church if they want. I'd be unhappy for the police or the armed forces to do that too.
Last edited by El Salsero Gringo; 4th-October-2005 at 03:57 PM.
When I was in the Army in Italy I wasn't allowed anything that wasn't part of the uniform, so yes.
Of course im sure all the inmates are lovely to , who would you run to in a crises ??Originally Posted by DavidJames
Pity then that 50% of prison staff dont wear uniformsOriginally Posted by azande
Yes ive been in prisons and work with prisoners in the past
And your point is........ since we were talking about people in uniform?Originally Posted by stewart38
Originally Posted by azande
The facts
'a few tie pins were given out bearing the flag of St George on St georges day and in support of a cancer charity'
so those that work in the prison library can wear them but those that work in D block cant ??
Now I assume you agree anyone in unform (nurses , police etc NOT army) should not wear the poppy as it could be offence to others
Political correctness gone mad
Of course the BNP will love this and 'feed' of it.
yes lets ban the police wearing poppies I can see the BNP rubbing their hands now
No, you really do not understand, it might be my english.....
I do not believe people in uniform should wear anything (poppies, pins, striped ties, garters on top of trousers....) that is not issued with the uniform.
It has nothing to do with political correctness or the fear of offending anyone.
Please tell me if it is clear. If not I'll get someone else to explain it to you.
Do we have to know every member of an iffy regime, to know that they're iffy, or to make value judgements about them?Originally Posted by TiggsTours
For example (oops, I was in danger of invoking Godwin's law with a reducto ad absurdium comparison there, whew...), should I know every member of a terrorist group before I can judge that they're not nice people?
Putting it another way, did the authors of the MacPherson report have to personally know every London copper before they could say that the Met was institutionally racist? Or for that matter, that it was instituionally corrupt in the 60s and 70s? These are pretty much matters of public record.
In 10 minutes of online searching, I've come up with 4 very damning pieces of factual evidence against the prison staff regime in Wakefield. Yes, I'm making a value judgement here, but I'm basing it on publically-available and reputable sources.
What evidence do you have to assume that these are just harmless patriots, apart from a story they told which has "lovely publicity" and "distract their attention" and "One for the Mail readers to get worked up about" written all over it?
It looks and smells like a publicity-generated story to me.
So, getting absurd again, you don't think Ian Huntley (who's a prisoner in Wakefield, BTW) is a bad person?Originally Posted by TiggsTours
Well, I'm old, and cynical, yes. But so what? Am I right? Or am I right? (Gotta throw in a Groundhog day quote somewhere)Originally Posted by TiggsTours
Seriously, you have to make judgements about people we don't know personally in life - for example, in elections, surely?
Facts that you have from where by the way? I'm not being 'challenging' - I'd like to know.Originally Posted by stewart38Basically, there's a strong argument for that - yes. If uniformed public servants are to wear badges then someone (you, Stewart?) is going to have to decide on which badges are acceptable and which aren't.Originally Posted by stewart38Stuff what the BNP think. On this or on anything else.Originally Posted by stewart38
Answer the question would you 'run' to the scum officers or the lovely in matesOriginally Posted by DavidJames
Anyway 'debates' like this are silly
The BNP is a clear winner once again
I think we have one camp that would ban everything and another that w ouldnt.
Ill wear my poppy with pride come July !!!!
I'd also love to know what cancer charity this was.Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
I can't find anything online - can anyone who knows how this superweb thing works help?
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