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Thread: The right to leave

  1. #121
    TiggsTours
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    No. It's a tie pin worn by a bunch of thugs who have a code of uniform which they should respect. Simply on the arguments of discipline and respect for authority, they should damn well wear what they're told, stop bitching about this sort of trivia, and sort their prison out.
    Please get your facts straight before entering into this argument. The St George's Cross pins that the prison officers were wearing were charity pins, in aid of a cancer research charity. Are you suggesting that the prison officers do not wear poppies in November, as it is not part of their uniform and they should be sorting their prison out?

  2. #122
    Meglio del Cioccolato Demo
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    Re: The right to leave

    Whether they do or not is not an issue. They are wearing a uniform and that should be it.

  3. #123
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    Please get your facts straight before entering into this argument. The St George's Cross pins that the prison officers were wearing were charity pins, in aid of a cancer research charity.
    Well gosh, I'm just all upset now that those nice non-racist, non-rapist, charidee-supporting, lovely-smelling guards were all misunderstood.

    But the full quote is "Chief inspector of prisons Anne Owers said she had been told the pins were bought in support of a cancer charity."
    (emphasis mine)

    Now, I've Googled, but I can't find any cancer charity which provided St. George's cross pins - that's just the story she was told.

    But, I've found a lot of stories about Wakefield Prison - for example, this BBC article about the prison guard who won the UK's highest-ever compensation award for unfair dismissal, after blowing the whistle about inmate abuse - apparently, she was treated as a "grass" after reporting claims prisoners were being bullied.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    Are you suggesting that the prison officers do not wear poppies in November, as it is not part of their uniform and they should be sorting their prison out?
    I'm not suggesting anything; I'm saying it.

    The prison guards at Wakefield are a bunch of thugs, and I don't trust anything they tell me. I'm going to start with the assumption that they're liars, and work from there.

    And from an emotional point of view, I don't want these people using my country's flag - they are racists, and I don't like them.

  4. #124
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by azande
    Whether they do or not is not an issue. They are wearing a uniform and that should be it.

    Of course its a bloody issue. so you would band poppies and if not why not ??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames

    I'm not suggesting anything; I'm saying it.

    The prison guards at Wakefield are a bunch of thugs, and I don't trust anything they tell me. I'm going to start with the assumption that they're liars, and work from there.

    And from an emotional point of view, I don't want these people using my country's flag - they are racists, and I don't like them.

    How much time did you spend in the prison ? I ASSUME you spent some time there to reach these conclusions ?

  5. #125
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    Re: The right to leave

    I would ban poppies or anything else that is not regulamentary (SP?) worn with a uniform. That's why is called a "UNIFORM".

    When in civil clothes they can wear what the hell they want.

  6. #126
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by azande
    I would ban poppies or anything else that is not regulamentary (SP?) worn with a uniform. That's why is called a "UNIFORM".

    When in civil clothes they can wear what the hell they want.


    Once again we have stupid authorities getting overly "PC" when azande's reason should have been quite sufficient - and inflammatory media reporting creating the Himalayan mountain chain out of a grain of dust.

  7. #127
    TiggsTours
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by azande
    I would ban poppies or anything else that is not regulamentary (SP?) worn with a uniform. That's why is called a "UNIFORM".

    When in civil clothes they can wear what the hell they want.
    So, when police officers wear poppies, or even soldiers, or other members of our British forces, wear poppies, that is wrong then is it? I mean, its not part of the uniform. Perhaps the Salvation Army should stop wearing them too?

  8. #128
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    How much time did you spend in the prison ? I ASSUME you spent some time there to reach these conclusions ?
    Well, I'm just basing my evidence on the following publically-known facts:
    - They've just been rapped over the knuckles by an inspection for a number of problems including racism
    - The principal prison officer has been charged with 4 rapes
    - The one staff member who tried to alert the authorities was bullied, mistreated, then unfairly dismissed.
    - There were 11 suicides there last year

    Apart from that, I'm sure they're all lovely...

  9. #129
    TiggsTours
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Well gosh, I'm just all upset now that those nice non-racist, non-rapist, charidee-supporting, lovely-smelling guards were all misunderstood.

    But the full quote is "Chief inspector of prisons Anne Owers said she had been told the pins were bought in support of a cancer charity."
    (emphasis mine)

    Now, I've Googled, but I can't find any cancer charity which provided St. George's cross pins - that's just the story she was told.

    But, I've found a lot of stories about Wakefield Prison - for example, this BBC article about the prison guard who won the UK's highest-ever compensation award for unfair dismissal, after blowing the whistle about inmate abuse - apparently, she was treated as a "grass" after reporting claims prisoners were being bullied.


    I'm not suggesting anything; I'm saying it.

    The prison guards at Wakefield are a bunch of thugs, and I don't trust anything they tell me. I'm going to start with the assumption that they're liars, and work from there.

    And from an emotional point of view, I don't want these people using my country's flag - they are racists, and I don't like them.
    And I take it you know all the guards at Wakefield Prison personally, I mean, you must do, in order to be able to speak about them this way. Personally I prefer not to judge people that I do not know, or make sweeping generalisations about anything or anyone, I do not have first hand knowledge of. Perhaps I'm niaive? I'd rather be niaive, than an old cynic.

  10. #130
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    I just love seeing arguments get sidetracked to supply justification for the original point of view

    Of course, I don't like taking part in them - 'cos I get as het up as everyone else. Been here, done this one :shrug:

    *sets up popcorn stand*

  11. #131
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    So, when police officers wear poppies, or even soldiers, or other members of our British forces, wear poppies, that is wrong then is it? I mean, its not part of the uniform. Perhaps the Salvation Army should stop wearing them too?
    Since you ask, it's probably better for the police not to wear poppies. The Army? Well, it's a military remembrance thing, so fair enough.

    The Salvation Army can wear whatever they like since it isn't (my) public money that funds them. They can beat the drum, tell me I'm a sinner and try to persuade me to go to church if they want. I'd be unhappy for the police or the armed forces to do that too.
    Last edited by El Salsero Gringo; 4th-October-2005 at 03:57 PM.

  12. #132
    Meglio del Cioccolato Demo
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    Re: The right to leave

    When I was in the Army in Italy I wasn't allowed anything that wasn't part of the uniform, so yes.

  13. #133
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Well, I'm just basing my evidence on the following publically-known facts:
    - They've just been rapped over the knuckles by an inspection for a number of problems including racism
    - The principal prison officer has been charged with 4 rapes
    - The one staff member who tried to alert the authorities was bullied, mistreated, then unfairly dismissed.
    - There were 11 suicides there last year

    Apart from that, I'm sure they're all lovely...
    Of course im sure all the inmates are lovely to , who would you run to in a crises ??

    Quote Originally Posted by azande
    I would ban poppies or anything else that is not regulamentary (SP?) worn with a uniform. That's why is called a "UNIFORM".

    When in civil clothes they can wear what the hell they want.
    Pity then that 50% of prison staff dont wear uniforms

    Yes ive been in prisons and work with prisoners in the past

  14. #134
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    Pity then that 50% of prison staff dont wear uniforms
    And your point is........ since we were talking about people in uniform?

  15. #135
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by azande
    And your point is........ since we were talking about people in uniform?

    The facts

    'a few tie pins were given out bearing the flag of St George on St georges day and in support of a cancer charity'

    so those that work in the prison library can wear them but those that work in D block cant ??

    Now I assume you agree anyone in unform (nurses , police etc NOT army) should not wear the poppy as it could be offence to others

    Political correctness gone mad

    Of course the BNP will love this and 'feed' of it.

    yes lets ban the police wearing poppies I can see the BNP rubbing their hands now

  16. #136
    Meglio del Cioccolato Demo
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    Re: The right to leave

    No, you really do not understand, it might be my english.....

    I do not believe people in uniform should wear anything (poppies, pins, striped ties, garters on top of trousers....) that is not issued with the uniform.

    It has nothing to do with political correctness or the fear of offending anyone.

    Please tell me if it is clear. If not I'll get someone else to explain it to you.

  17. #137
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    And I take it you know all the guards at Wakefield Prison personally, I mean, you must do, in order to be able to speak about them this way.
    Do we have to know every member of an iffy regime, to know that they're iffy, or to make value judgements about them?

    For example (oops, I was in danger of invoking Godwin's law with a reducto ad absurdium comparison there, whew...), should I know every member of a terrorist group before I can judge that they're not nice people?

    Putting it another way, did the authors of the MacPherson report have to personally know every London copper before they could say that the Met was institutionally racist? Or for that matter, that it was instituionally corrupt in the 60s and 70s? These are pretty much matters of public record.

    In 10 minutes of online searching, I've come up with 4 very damning pieces of factual evidence against the prison staff regime in Wakefield. Yes, I'm making a value judgement here, but I'm basing it on publically-available and reputable sources.

    What evidence do you have to assume that these are just harmless patriots, apart from a story they told which has "lovely publicity" and "distract their attention" and "One for the Mail readers to get worked up about" written all over it?

    It looks and smells like a publicity-generated story to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    Personally I prefer not to judge people that I do not know
    So, getting absurd again, you don't think Ian Huntley (who's a prisoner in Wakefield, BTW) is a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    or make sweeping generalisations about anything or anyone, I do not have first hand knowledge of. Perhaps I'm niaive? I'd rather be niaive, than an old cynic.
    Well, I'm old, and cynical, yes. But so what? Am I right? Or am I right? (Gotta throw in a Groundhog day quote somewhere)


    Seriously, you have to make judgements about people we don't know personally in life - for example, in elections, surely?

  18. #138
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    The facts

    'a few tie pins were given out bearing the flag of St George on St georges day and in support of a cancer charity'
    Facts that you have from where by the way? I'm not being 'challenging' - I'd like to know.
    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    Now I assume you agree anyone in unform (nurses , police etc NOT army) should not wear the poppy as it could be offence to others
    Basically, there's a strong argument for that - yes. If uniformed public servants are to wear badges then someone (you, Stewart?) is going to have to decide on which badges are acceptable and which aren't.
    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    Of course the BNP will love this and 'feed' of it.
    Stuff what the BNP think. On this or on anything else.

  19. #139
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Do we have to know every member of an iffy regime, to know that they're iffy, or to make value judgements about them?

    For example (oops, I was in danger of invoking Godwin's law with a reducto ad absurdium comparison there, whew...), should I know every member of a terrorist group before I can judge that they're not nice people?

    Putting it another way, did the authors of the MacPherson report have to personally know every London copper before they could say that the Met was institutionally racist? Or for that matter, that it was instituionally corrupt in the 60s and 70s? These are pretty much matters of public record.

    In 10 minutes of online searching, I've come up with 4 very damning pieces of factual evidence against the prison staff regime in Wakefield. Yes, I'm making a value judgement here, but I'm basing it on publically-available and reputable sources.

    What evidence do you have to assume that these are just harmless patriots, apart from a story they told which has "lovely publicity" and "distract their attention" and "One for the Mail readers to get worked up about" written all over it?

    It looks and smells like a publicity-generated story to me.


    So, getting absurd again, you don't think Ian Huntley (who's a prisoner in Wakefield, BTW) is a bad person?


    Well, I'm old, and cynical, yes. But so what? Am I right? Or am I right? (Gotta throw in a Groundhog day quote somewhere)


    Seriously, you have to make judgements about people we don't know personally in life - for example, in elections, surely?
    Answer the question would you 'run' to the scum officers or the lovely in mates


    Anyway 'debates' like this are silly

    The BNP is a clear winner once again

    I think we have one camp that would ban everything and another that w ouldnt.

    Ill wear my poppy with pride come July !!!!

  20. #140
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Facts that you have from where by the way? I'm not being 'challenging' - I'd like to know..
    I'd also love to know what cancer charity this was.

    I can't find anything online - can anyone who knows how this superweb thing works help?

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