The right to leave

[Baruch]

Oaths of allegiance to whomever or whatever, are irrelevant for those for whom it is irrelevant (if you see what I mean)

Yes, that's a fair point. However, I still think that if people do have to swear them in order to become citizens, they shouldn't be made to swear an allegiance that a large number of native British people would be unwilling to swear. Whether it's relevant to the people who have to swear the oath is a different matter.

[El Salsero Gringo]

However, I still think that if people do have to swear them in order to become citizens, they shouldn't be made to swear an allegiance that a large number of native British people would be unwilling to swear.

Why not? Immigrants who wish to become naturalised have to pass a whole load of tests and selections that native-born British don't.

[Baruch]

Why not? Immigrants who wish to become naturalised have to pass a whole load of tests and selections that native-born British don't.

I suppose it just seems pointless to me, and a bit anachronistic. After all, the monarch has little real power or significance, other than as a figurehead. If an oath is required, it should be an oath of allegiance to the state, to the United Kingdom, not to an almost irrelevant relic of an archaic form of government.

[stewart38]

Slough is hardly a city, as Graham pointed out, nor can it be called "lots of cities"

yep slough is a small hamlet
---------------------------------
Slough and its people
Slough is a thriving multicultural town whose close proximity to Heathrow Airport and London, and its excellent transport and communication links, account for its importance and success as a commercial centre. Slough has one of the fastest growing populations in the country. In 2001, the Census showed that the population of Slough comprised 59,320 males and 59,750 females giving a total resident population for the unitary authority of 119,070.

----------------------------

[Dreadful Scathe]

yep slough is a small hamlet
<snip>

Is it really? If only someone would post a paragraph on slough with some statistics to prove it was a town!

[David Bailey]

There's the problem, though. While the UK is still a monarchy, any oath of allegiance would involve swearing allegiance to the monarch. Of course, that may sound reasonable to some, but seeing as there are so many native British people (myself included) who would not swear such allegiance, it seems unreasonable to expect immigrants to do it in order to become citizens (or subjects).

I don't believe so. I was born here, I didn't have any choice in the matter, and I have as much right to the citizenship of my country as Elizabeth flipping Windsor. So I don't want to swear allegiance to her, she's done nothing to deserve it in my book.

However, if I chose to move to another country, chose to live there, and chose to apply to become a citizen there, it's not unreasonable to expect to conform to a slightly different set of requirements than native-born citizens for the citizenship process. Again, the element of choice is the key thing.

I agree swearing allegiance to the Queen is anachronistic; but then, having a hereditary monarch as Head of State is anachronistic. And whilst she is head of state, she represents the UK, like it or not (and I don't).

Any alternative form of words would be difficult to get agreement on, and would be troublesome politically (I can just see the Mail headlines about any changes now...). So we fudge. But then, compromise is also part of the British tradition, so that's OK,

[Graham]

I've never understood why people get so upset about the head of state. I could understand it if she was a bad head of state, but it's not as if she's presiding over a dictatorship, or bringing the nation into disrepute. When you compare her to elected heads of state such as George Bush or even Jacques Chirac, I don't think she does too badly.

However, I think the key thing about a "citizenship oath" is not so much the exact form of words, but the acceptance of a system of law / government.

[David Bailey]

I've never understood why people get so upset about the head of state. I could understand it if she was a bad head of state, but it's not as if she's presiding over a dictatorship, or bringing the nation into disrepute.

It's the principle of being born into the job that gets my goat. We can't chuck her out if we don't like her, as we can with other people in positions of power. OK, it's not much power, but she is still head of state.

When you compare her to elected heads of state such as George Bush or even Jacques Chirac, I don't think she does too badly.

I can't deny these two are pretty unappetising - but at least they don't have the job for life, or act as if they have a right to it.

However, I think the key thing about a "citizenship oath" is not so much the exact form of words, but the acceptance of a system of law / government.

For the UK, I'd suggest acceptance of:
- democratic politics
- rule of law
- tolerance of other people and cultures
- freedom of expression (where not infringing the other three)

[stewart38]

Is it really? If only someone would post a paragraph on slough with some statistics to prove it was a town!

I think there is about 250,000 living in and around Slough and they havent dropped any bombs on it yet (not since the 1940s anyway)

Funny I use to say I always lived near slough when i lived in it

I think the points have been made

[Dreadful Scathe]

I think the points have been made

indeed they have

[stewart38]

The sad thing is when Prison officers want to wear the St Georges tiepins at Wakefield prison to support charity its banned for fear of offending in mates

I can see why in England now why wearing or showing the national flag is connected with BNP and rascism

I wouldnt know of any other country in the world thats got to a sitaution like we have in England where its SEEN as an offence or rasicist to wear or show the national flag

[Lucy Locket]

The sad thing is when Prison officers want to wear the St Georges tiepins at Wakefield prison to support charity its banned for fear of offending in mates

I can see why in England now why wearing or showing the national flag is connected with BNP and rascism

I wouldnt know of any other country in the world thats got to a sitaution like we have in England where its SEEN as an offence or rasicist to wear or show the national flag

i know it is pathetic

[David Bailey]

The sad thing is when Prison officers want to wear the St Georges tiepins at Wakefield prison to support charity its banned for fear of offending in mates

I presume you're referring to this Daily Telegraph article?

If so, it sounds like this is a specific case - Wakefield clearly has problems with racism. To quote from the same article:
"The inspectors also found that black and minority ethnic prisoners were twice as likely to be charged with an offence against prison rules."

Also, the fact that it's Principal Prison Officer has been charged with committing a series of rapes doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in the officers' motivations.

It's easy to say "PC gone mad blah blah", but in Wakefield a bit more overcaution wouldn't be a bad thing.

I wouldnt know of any other country in the world thats got to a sitaution like we have in England where its SEEN as an offence or rasicist to wear or show the national flag

OK, I've got to say it: that's just bullsh*t.

In the first place, prison guards have these things, they're called uniforms. One of the funny things about uniforms is that they all look the same. And if you wear a uniform, you have these restrictions on what decorations you can add to the things.

In the second place, Wakefield Prison officers clearly have serious problems with racism and other criminality, so a bit of discipline and understanding from these guys wouldn't kill them. It wouldn't totally shock me to find out that the whole cross-wearing thing is a put-up job designed to distract awareness from the serious staff problems there.

Of course, now the story is all about the Valiant Patriotic Prison Officers, hounded by Ms. (nice touch that) Owers. I bet Wakefield prison officers are laughing all the way to the BNP meeting...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Some people can wear a St. George's cross and it means nothing.

Some people can wear a St. George's cross and intend it to be a racist badge.

Some people like to wear it as a racist badge and play for sympathy by using this amibguity when they're told not to.

Personally I think prison staff should be more professional than to wear badges of allegiance - to anything - on their uniforms.

[TiggsTours]

ok but................if you go to other certain countries you have to abide by their rules, religions, beliefs, language, no bare flesh on show, no alcohol, no certain meats, celebrate their religious festivals, they stick firmly to their culture & don't make allowances for ours, or very little. It's their country & their way of life & that's how it should be. When in Rome etc etc etc. Why have we given up our way of life?? Why can't we have pictures of our Queen up in the schools?? Why do we have to learn, celebrate other religions?? With all due respect we are a christian country & if any one of us wanted to learn another language or know about another religion we are capable of going to evening classes, of joining another church, temple, mosque etc. Yes it's nice to be taught a little as part of our history lesson but to have it in your face (daily as it is in schools these days) at the cost of our own language, religion, lifestyle is bang out of order. If they choose to live in our country they should live as we do, otherwise stay where they are. I'm sure we would not be treated with such respect in their country, we would have to live in their country in their way.

No disrespect meant by the way.

I agree! I love other cultures, and I think it is wonderful when cultures truly mix together, but that is just not the case in this country, no matter what people think. Individuals of different cultures may mix, many of my closest friends are from other cultures, but as a country we just don't do it! Instead of banning Christmas lights (the Christian culture is the oldest surviving in this country, not the original) why don't we truly embrace other cultures and celebrate ALL the festivals!? More parties can't be a bad thing? But, in turn of British culture opening up to embrace the "new" cultures that have been brought to this country, there is nothing wrong with hanging on to our own! If I was to move to another country I would most certainly expect to learn the native language, and live by their laws, and culture, why should things be any different here?

[stewart38]

I presume you're referring to this Daily Telegraph article?

If so, it sounds like this is a specific case - Wakefield clearly has problems with racism. To quote from the same article:
"The inspectors also found that black and minority ethnic prisoners were twice as likely to be charged with an offence against prison rules."

Also, the fact that it's Principal Prison Officer has been charged with committing a series of rapes doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in the officers' motivations.

It's easy to say "PC gone mad blah blah", but in Wakefield a bit more overcaution wouldn't be a bad thing.


OK, I've got to say it: that's just bullsh*t.

In the first place, prison guards have these things, they're called uniforms. One of the funny things about uniforms is that they all look the same. And if you wear a uniform, you have these restrictions on what decorations you can add to the things.

In the second place, Wakefield Prison officers clearly have serious problems with racism and other criminality, so a bit of discipline and understanding from these guys wouldn't kill them. It wouldn't totally shock me to find out that the whole cross-wearing thing is a put-up job designed to distract awareness from the serious staff problems there.

Of course, now the story is all about the Valiant Patriotic Prison Officers, hounded by Ms. (nice touch that) Owers. I bet Wakefield prison officers are laughing all the way to the BNP meeting...

Its the bloody national flag for f*** sake

Of course flag = BNP or skin heads or village fetes (and thats largely true)

A 'understanding of what' ? Lets just keep re-inforcing stero types

Could you image in the USA if they took the USA flag down in prisons or anywhere else.

Or ANY where else in the world.

[TiggsTours]

Its the bloody national flag for f*** sake

Of course flag = BNP or skin heads or village fetes (and thats largely true)

A 'understanding of what' ? Lets just keep re-inforcing stero types

Could you image in the USA if they took the USA flag down in prisons or anywhere else.

Or ANY where else in the world.

We fly our own flag far less than any other country, which is how the BN bl***y P managed to adopt the Union Jack so readily! People started flying the St Georges cross proudly in a fight back against this pejudice, not in support of it! Why shouldn't we be proud of our country, and our own culture, no matter what culture we or our distant or not so distant relatives may originate from? Why should pride in your own country, and your own culture be seen as racist?

[El Salsero Gringo]

We fly our own flag far less than any other country, which is how the BN bl***y P managed to adopt the Union Jack so readily! People started flying the St Georges cross proudly in a fight back against this pejudice, not in support of it! Why shouldn't we be proud of our country, and our own culture, no matter what culture we or our distant or not so distant relatives may originate from? Why should pride in your own country, and your own culture be seen as racist?

No reason at all.

But, just perhaps, the prison guards who wanted to wear a St. George's Cross pin were not doing it out of pride for the country and culture.

[David Bailey]

Its the bloody national flag for f*** sake

No. It's a tie pin worn by a bunch of thugs who have a code of uniform which they should respect. Simply on the arguments of discipline and respect for authority, they should damn well wear what they're told, stop bitching about this sort of trivia, and sort their prison out.

Could you image in the USA if they took the USA flag down in prisons or anywhere else.

I try not to contemplate the UK turning into a clone of the USA wherever possible, it ensures I can sleep better at night.

Or ANY where else in the world.

Yeah? You ever been to South Armagh perchance? They take flags seriously there, believe me.

We fly our own flag far less than any other country, which is how the BN bl***y P managed to adopt the Union Jack so readily! People started flying the St Georges cross proudly in a fight back against this pejudice, not in support of it! Why shouldn't we be proud of our country, and our own culture, no matter what culture we or our distant or not so distant relatives may originate from? Why should pride in your own country, and your own culture be seen as racist?

To which I can only say 2 things:
- I agree wholeheartedly.
- That's nothing to do with the story we're discussing.

So, I'm proud of my country, but I'm not especially proud of the prison staff in Wakefield Prison.

They wear a uniform - would you think it OK for army officers to paint big Union Jacks on their uniforms? (make great targets of course, I'm sure the boys in Iraq would love it).

Also, they're a bunch of thugs, and I'm not impressed with their charidee badge story, it looks like a put-up job as I said.

Freedom of expression has constraints in any civilised society - and flag-waving / flag-wearing is pretty lowest-common-denominator. As the saying goes "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" - and I think these guys fit the bill nicely.

Also, I thought part of the core values of British patriotism were not to make a big deal about it...

[stewart38]

Also, I thought part of the core values of British patriotism were not to make a big deal about it...

Unless of course there is a World Cup or European cup when everyone is allowed to be proud to be English Scotish ,Irish

I do see some of your points that you raise did have merit