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Thread: The right to leave

  1. #81
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    In *every* single argument about immigration that I've ever observed or taken part in, this happens.

    "This" being picking at individual events and issues and extrapolating those to "prove" that the point of view is correct when applied to the whole argument.

    I agree that not putting up Christmas lights is ridiculous. So I would refer the honourable gentlemen to the point I made earlier about inconsistent decision-making on the part of authorities.

    Of course, I've picked on one thing - DS' and Stewart's exchange above (because it was the most recent) to prove the point of *my* argument.

    And my argument is that any discussion about immigration is doomed to be inconclusive and lead to inflammatory exchanges such as some of the ones we've seen on this thread. It's an emotive issue and always will be.

    No, I haven't reached any conclusion either, I just wanted to rant about people ranting.

    This isnt about immigration its about Facts you cant base whats going on in the world by looking down your own street and say hey all that about flooding is *******s as my street is dry

    I see muslims stopped every day at Euston , i dont like it

  2. #82
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    This isnt about immigration its about Facts you cant base whats going on in the world by looking down your own street and say hey all that about flooding is *******s as my street is dry
    What I'm saying is that people frequently only use *one* fact to prove an immigration argument rather than a collection of facts (e.g. all immigrants are evil because one family happens to be taking the p*** out of the benefits system, outrage outrage blah blah blah; all Muslims expect unreasonable changes because one pig-headed girl insists on being able to cover up completely when the existing uniform was perfectly acceptable according to Koranic principles, and the courts are dithering because the media is again shouting outrage, cultural insensitivity or outrage, she's being unreasonable - and changing their minds daily. etc etc etc). And that this picking one fact and saying "there, that proves it" frequently happens in immigration arguments in my experience. I guess what I'm asking for is for us to get away from picking at individual facts and discuss issues. Of course, you need facts as evidence. But more than one or two.

    I see muslims stopped every day at Euston , i dont like it
    You've fallen into the classic media trap there - How do you know they are Muslim? They could be Christian, Hindu, atheists or any other religion? If you mean *Asians* I don't like seeing them being stopped at Kings Cross either. But again, we're on the shaky ground of "racist versus reasonable". There are white Muslims. But most Muslims are Asian and therefore stand out by their appearance - so are more likely to be stopped. Asians may also be "not Muslim", as noted above. The FACT is that many (although not all) recent terrorist attacks on "the West" have been carried out by male Muslims of Asian origin. Short of stopping and searching everybody, the police have to make best use of resources and since current evidence indicates that there are more Asian male terrorists than white female terrorists, of course Asian males are more likely to get stopped. This does *not* excuse poor or prejudicial treatment or discourtesy. But stopping them in the first place is absolutely reasonable.

    Unfortunately, because of political correctness gone mad, the above point of view could get me called racist, because I am suggesting that treating someone differently on the basis of their appearance is reasonable. So let me make it quite clear that I am ONLY agreeing that the stop and search on more male Asians than other sectors of the population is reasonable based on EVIDENCE that most recent terrorism has been carried out by male Asians.

  3. #83
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    So a NO to face being covered then. Proves the lie of the original post. Can anyone find a source for all the cities who didn't put up Xmas decorations? (or..er..not as the case mat be
    The London Borough of Barnet puts up non-denominational lights in Golders Green Road around the beginning of December, and takes them away mid-January.

    Given that 30% of the population of Golders Green is Jewish, and a large proportion of those Orthodox Jewish who could well object to overtly Christian decorations - it seems like a fair compromise.

    The lights themselves are long festoons of white bulbs, strung across the road in a zig-zag. I think they look fantastic and are much more tasteful than some Christmas decorations I have seen.

    Incidentally, most of those Jewish people are second or third-generation British-born.

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    Re: The right to leave

    Slough is now a city? Gee, you leave the country for a few weeks, and it's all change.... It's worth remembering that seasonal illuminations cost money, and that the motives of local authorities are frequently misrepresented either deliberately by themselves or maliciously by those politically opposed to the party or parties in power.

    I don't want you to feel attacked, Stewart, but by posting your original piece you were pretty much asking for a response like DS's. It's the publishing equivalent of "I was only following orders". If you had posted your own response to it, or even picked specific questions out of it, it wouldn't have looked so much like you agreed with most of it but were too afraid to come out and say so.

    On the food thing, if one finds it offensive to be in the same room as food which does not adhere to one's religious standards, then it would be wise to either point this out to a potential host in advance to see if some accommodation can be reached (such as serving the food in a different room), or simply to avoid going to venues where this is likely to be the case.

  5. #85
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Given that 30% of the population of Golders Green is Jewish, and a large proportion of those Orthodox Jewish who could well object to overtly Christian decorations - it seems like a fair compromise.
    Maybe because putting lights up on high streets has nothing to do with Christian celebrations of Christmas (as neither do trees or Santa) and everything to do with attracting shoppers to an area to spend money?

  6. #86
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    Maybe because putting lights up on high streets has nothing to do with Christian celebrations of Christmas (as neither do trees or Santa) and everything to do with attracting shoppers to an area to spend money?
    Absolutely. It makes the high-street look great, livens up the usually dull winter skyline and encourages people out of their houses. Judaism has a celebratory festival in the middle of winter (northern hemsiphere) too, as does Hinduism, and other religions to boot, no doubt. I'm not bothered that the lights are non-denominational though. Are you?

  7. #87
    Registered User Lucy Locket's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    So you don't support the learning of, say, French, Spanish or Italian in schools? Or else which languages are you saying aren't worth learning?
    The gaping hole in this argument (so big that perhaps you can't see it) is that the people I suspect you are talking about are British and this is their country. If you are going to show a complete and total disregard for their cultural heritage, why should you expect any for yours in return?

    excuse me but i was the one who went into my children's primary schools & taught them french & italian because i believe if you go to another country you make some effort to speak their language, which is why i also learnt german & as my sister in law is japanese learnt that too because her parents couldn't speak english when they came here

    As for myself i have an italian & british passport because funnily enough i was born here to italian parents

    finally because my parents' english was not that good they would speak in italian a lot in front of 'english speaking people' & i always made sure people understood what they said

    if i go abroad i always make a point of learning a little of their language & their customs & don't expect them to speak english or make allowances

  8. #88
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Locket
    if i go abroad i always make a point of learning a little of their language & their customs & don't expect them to speak english or make allowances
    Yes, but that I think is the point you're ignoring: the people whose customs we find 'foreign' are not 'abroad': they have British passports, and they're right at home here in Britain! It's your narrow interpretation of what is or isn't British that labels their way of life 'foreign'. Because they live in Britain, with British passports - however they choose to live or worship *is* British!

    (Basically, I agree with you to an extent. I think it's a good idea for immigrants to learn English, and were I to emigrate to another country it would be top of my list to learn the vernacular. But I do welcome the input of different cultures to our society - I think it enriches the lives of us all - and in order for that input to happen it must be that *some* people 'live' that different culture right along side everyone else.)

  9. #89
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham
    It's worth remembering that seasonal illuminations cost money, and that the motives of local authorities are frequently misrepresented either deliberately by themselves or maliciously by those politically opposed to the party or parties in power.
    Oh yes, here's an example. To quote:

    "Christmas decorations are already up across Barnet with two months still to go before December 25.

    Town hall bosses say the lights will mark the start of the Hindu Diwali festival of light on November 14. But Tories this week accused the council of using the festival as an excuse for inefficiency.
    "

    etc...

    As for Golders Green, doesn't it have a big Menorah candle thing lit in the middle of the road somewhere for Hannukah ? Is that as well as, or instead of, the "bland lights"? Handy that Hannukah falls on Dec 25th this year

    There's definitely been a trend in recent years to have more public celebrations of Divali, Hannukah, etc. And this is a Good Thing. (OK, except when these Divali fireworks go on forever and keep me awake ).

    I can't see the rest of the UK going the N. Ireland route, where community-based celebrations used to be (and still are to an extent) treated as tribal warfare. At least, I hope I can't see it.

  10. #90
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    As for Golders Green, doesn't it have a big Menorah candle thing lit in the middle of the road somewhere for Hannukah ? Is that as well as, or instead of, the "bland lights"?
    As well as, but I don't think it's arranged by the council, or paid for from public funds.

  11. #91
    Registered User Lucy Locket's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Yes, but that I think is the point you're ignoring: the people whose customs we find 'foreign' are not 'abroad': they have British passports, and they're right at home here in Britain! It's your narrow interpretation of what is or isn't British that labels their way of life 'foreign'. Because they live in Britain, with British passports - however they choose to live or worship *is* British!

    (Basically, I agree with you to an extent. I think it's a good idea for immigrants to learn English, and were I to emigrate to another country it would be top of my list to learn the vernacular. But I do welcome the input of different cultures to our society - I think it enriches the lives of us all - and in order for that input to happen it must be that *some* people 'live' that different culture right along side everyone else.)

    yes i agree but not have it thrust down our throats to the sacrifice of our own culture

  12. #92
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Locket
    yes i agree but not have it thrust down our throats to the sacrifice of our own culture
    You know, I think you've nailed down exactly the problem here; the difficulty of ensuring that support / education / help doesn't turn into requirements / forced assimilation / indoctrination.

    Most people I think would agree that some degree of assimilation into your host country is reasonable. And that some familiarity with the country's language, customs and traditions would be helpful.

    The problem is, how much? Where do you draw the line?

    For example, I think the recent "Oath of allegiance" thing is a good idea, and that the whole citizenship test is not unreasonable; it's right that becoming a citizen of a country is treated as a meaningful step.

    Of course, I'd rather tear my tongue out than swear allegiance to Our Liz and Chaz, but that's a different matter...

    But that's fairly straighforward. What about people like Lucy's parents - to what degree should the state interfere with their private lives? And what about asylum-seekers - again, what degree of intrusion is justifiable?

  13. #93
    Registered User Lucy Locket's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    But that's fairly straighforward. What about people like Lucy's parents - to what degree should the state interfere with their private lives? And what about asylum-seekers - again, what degree of intrusion is justifiable?[/QUOTE]


    My parents have their italian roots but they are living in this country & abide by its rules. what happens behind closed doors (so to speak) is their business. That's where they are italian, they speak italian at home, eat italian food, watch italian tv. They are better english citizens than true british people. They will help anyone, they have italian family here but all their friends are english & they are loved & respected by them.

    They would now find it difficult to live in Italy as it would be as alien to them as you & me.

    It's was hard for us all when we were young because i was brought up speaking 2 languages. I ate italian meals. Was the only non british child at school with a funny name. Being laughed at & bullied was not funny. i recall staying for school dinners because my friends did instead of going home & ate nothing, i recognized nothing, equally they laughed at what we ate, as spaghetti was unheard of. Went on a school trip & ate nothing. In many ways it's easier these days, times have changed, because we travel further & more, so experience different cultures. We accept more & are accepted. 'Foreign' children, families are part of our everyday lives and that's good. After all we are all human, regardless of colour or creed.

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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    ...For example, I think the recent "Oath of allegiance" thing is a good idea, and that the whole citizenship test is not unreasonable; it's right that becoming a citizen of a country is treated as a meaningful step...
    I would not swear allegiance to the Queen.

  15. #95
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I would not swear allegiance to the Queen.
    Indeed - in case you missed it, let me repeat:

    "Of course, I'd rather tear my tongue out than swear allegiance to Our Liz and Chaz, but that's a different matter..."

    However, the principle of making a commitment to a country to become a citizen is what I'm talking about, rather than the embarassment of swearing to some old tart who'll be first up against the wall come the revolution.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Absolutely. It makes the high-street look great, livens up the usually dull winter skyline and encourages people out of their houses. Judaism has a celebratory festival in the middle of winter (northern hemsiphere) too, as does Hinduism, and other religions to boot, no doubt. I'm not bothered that the lights are non-denominational though. Are you?
    No. I love twinkly lights. And other 'Christmas' decorations - I just don't really associate any of that with the Biblical understanding of Christmas. Doesn't mean that I don't enjoy the lights and seeing cities making efforts to make the shopping areas attractive.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I can't see the rest of the UK going the N. Ireland route, where community-based celebrations used to be (and still are to an extent) treated as tribal warfare. At least, I hope I can't see it.
    Like where there are steel barricades and days of stand off about people walking or not walking down a stretch of road? And flags, coloured kerb stones, wall murals etc all acting as territory markers?

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    For example, I think the recent "Oath of allegiance" thing is a good idea, and that the whole citizenship test is not unreasonable; it's right that becoming a citizen of a country is treated as a meaningful step.

    Of course, I'd rather tear my tongue out than swear allegiance to Our Liz and Chaz, but that's a different matter...
    There's the problem, though. While the UK is still a monarchy, any oath of allegiance would involve swearing allegiance to the monarch. Of course, that may sound reasonable to some, but seeing as there are so many native British people (myself included) who would not swear such allegiance, it seems unreasonable to expect immigrants to do it in order to become citizens (or subjects).

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    Papa Smurf
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    So not putting them up would not offend a Christian believer. Calling Christmas 'Xmas' would.
    Really? I thought that was just a Greek letter and was in the original bible translations? I googled it to check. And it seems thats the case
    (scroll down for the Origin of Xmas)

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    slough
    Slough is hardly a city, as Graham pointed out, nor can it be called "lots of cities"


    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    I see muslims stopped every day at Euston , i dont like it
    Are they labelling muslims now? I think they should do the same with vegetarians myself

  19. #99
    Registered User Clive Long's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    There's the problem, though. While the UK is still a monarchy, any oath of allegiance would involve swearing allegiance to the monarch. Of course, that may sound reasonable to some, but seeing as there are so many native British people (myself included) who would not swear such allegiance, it seems unreasonable to expect immigrants to do it in order to become citizens (or subjects).
    If I was an economic migrant or a refugee I would say any form of words to get the right to stay in the country of my choice even if I did not believe a word of it nor understand the implications what I was saying.

    Oaths of allegiance to whomever or whatever, are irrelevant for those for whom it is irrelevant (if you see what I mean)

    Clive

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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    Really? I thought that was just a Greek letter and was in the original bible translations? I googled it to check. And it seems thats the case
    (scroll down for the Origin of Xmas)
    It's true that the word "Christos" (Christ) is often abbreviated to Xtos on Greek icons etc. That's the same sort of thining that's behind "Xmas". It's an abbreviation, nothing more. It doesn't offend my religious sensibilities, especially as I used to use the abbreviation "Xt" for Christ when writing notes in Theology lectures. I do understand why it upsets some people, though, as it looks like the name of Christ is being removed from the celebration. Personally I get more upset by the more obvious ways in which Christ has been removed from the Christmas season, notably the way that our celebration of the birth of Jesus has been hijacked and turned into an orgy of materialism, overeating and debt, something to which Jesus himself would no doubt have objected most strongly.

    (Dons flameproof underwear.)

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