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Thread: The right to leave

  1. #61
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by some stupid email
    Our Country - YOU, the immigrants, have the right - the right to leave !
    After many cities not wanting to offend other cultures by putting up Xmas lights!!!!!
    After hearing that the Birmingham council changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered!!!!!
    The above was the final straw in many bureaucratic changes of gross stupidity over the past few years & prompted this editorial, written by a UK citizen, to be published in a British tabloid newspaper.
    Which newspaper would publish this ? it looks like a rehash of the typical pro-christian America email that circulates now and again. They've not even rewritten it to remove the specifically American bits. A badly written and then ripped of piece of text is hardly going to stengthen your case. Even in this first bit, as Graham pointed out, they cant even get their facts straight. The DVLA handle driving licences, not Birmingham City Council. Which cities did not put up Xmas lights so as not to offend other cultures. Certainly every single city in Scotland put up lights.

    We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the Language!
    Actually we speak Welsh, Cornish and Gaelic too. In fact on some of the Islands and North of Scotland, Gaelic is the 1st langauge - English is not learnt till the children go to school. I imagine its the same of Wales too.
    I've heard this quote many times usually by right wing American nutters "If you cant speak the language, get out of the country". Its especially funny because of the relatively young age of America as a nation and its diverse culture and language. Not only do you Native American languages, nearly half of Americans can speak Spanish.

    "In God We Trust" is our National Motto.
    No it isn't. Its not even the National Motto of America where they do actually have this motto printed on money. Many Americans are campaigning to get it removed from notes, just as they are campaigning to remove "under god" from the pledge of allegience. Some of those Americans are Christians too.

    This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.
    Only in the scrawlings in crayon on the padded cell that this writer clearly lives in. This again sounds like its referring to America. The only problem is the founding fathers were not all Christian and were very secular in their way of thinking. Not only that but U.S. society at that time was far more left wing than it is now Many Christians were socialists. The Christian right in America try and claim that the founding fathers thought like they did, but nothing could be further from the truth. As for Britain. Nothing was "founded" an Island of tribes coagulated into countries who warred with each other and eventually agreed to stop it. er...thats hardly "founded". Northern Ireland still has a bit of a problem with the "stopping it" bit but lets hope the peace process holds.

    It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, Because God is part of our culture.
    Again an American statement. "In God we tust" in schools. I've never heard of that. How lazy is the person who "wrote" this. Britain is a very secular nation and has a very low rate of Church goers.

    If ST Georges cross offends you, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.
    The St.Georges cross! Replace "Stars and Stripes" wth the wrong flag why don't you. I reckon if the person who "wrote" this doesnt even know what the British flag is, they should seriously consider moving to another part of the planet. Although there may be an argument against them being from this planet at all!

    We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change. Try understand, we really don't care how you did things where you came from.
    Disclaimer should read: For "we" read "me and my imaginary friend Buster the Bunny"

    This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and if you are prepared to integrate honourably, we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this.
    Yeah, Ill bet he would.

    But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great British freedom,
    "THE RIGHT TO LEAVE".
    Our pledge? Hang on..thats American isnt it. Lazy, lazy, lazy. What happened to the great British insitution of writing your own original bigoted material ?

    I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends (and enemies) it will also, sooner or later get back to the complainers, lets all try, please.
    No matter how many times you receive it... please forward it to all you know.
    Shame on you Stewart38 for posting this in the first place! Encouraging bigoted spam mail will not make you many friends. Whats wrong with starting a topic on immigration with a comment of your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    The problem is if you cant have a serious debate about this what do you end up with ?
    To have a serious debate you need to start with something sensible to debate over. The original post is absolute nonsense. I would picture a debate based on the material in your original quote to be sort of like a mad hatters tea party with bits of food being thrown, farting, and surreal comments about the colour of the letter Q. Maybe thats just me though.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    I didnt right the above and i made that clear so please dont quote me as if I have !
    But reading between the lines it sounds as if you at least partly support it. So why shouldnt we reply to you? (And right=write I take it? submit yourself for an Englishness test forthwith )

    Note it doesnt originate from me but was interesting
    Interesting? b0ll0cks more like

  2. #62
    Registered User Rebecca's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave



    *Cue rapturous applause*

  3. #63
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    Which newspaper would publish this ? it looks like a rehash of the typical pro-christian America email that circulates now and again. They've not even rewritten it to remove the specifically American bits. A badly written and then ripped of piece of text is hardly going to stengthen your case. Even in this first bit, as Graham pointed out, they cant even get their facts straight. The DVLA handle driving licences, not Birmingham City Council. Which cities did not put up Xmas lights so as not to offend other cultures. Certainly every single city in Scotland put up lights.



    Actually we speak Welsh, Cornish and Gaelic too. In fact on some of the Islands and North of Scotland, Gaelic is the 1st langauge - English is not learnt till the children go to school. I imagine its the same of Wales too.
    I've heard this quote many times usually by right wing American nutters "If you cant speak the language, get out of the country". Its especially funny because of the relatively young age of America as a nation and its diverse culture and language. Not only do you Native American languages, nearly half of Americans can speak Spanish.



    No it isn't. Its not even the National Motto of America where they do actually have this motto printed on money. Many Americans are campaigning to get it removed from notes, just as they are campaigning to remove "under god" from the pledge of allegience. Some of those Americans are Christians too.



    Only in the scrawlings in crayon on the padded cell that this writer clearly lives in. This again sounds like its referring to America. The only problem is the founding fathers were not all Christian and were very secular in their way of thinking. Not only that but U.S. society at that time was far more left wing than it is now Many Christians were socialists. The Christian right in America try and claim that the founding fathers thought like they did, but nothing could be further from the truth. As for Britain. Nothing was "founded" an Island of tribes coagulated into countries who warred with each other and eventually agreed to stop it. er...thats hardly "founded". Northern Ireland still has a bit of a problem with the "stopping it" bit but lets hope the peace process holds.



    Again an American statement. "In God we tust" in schools. I've never heard of that. How lazy is the person who "wrote" this. Britain is a very secular nation and has a very low rate of Church goers.



    The St.Georges cross! Replace "Stars and Stripes" wth the wrong flag why don't you. I reckon if the person who "wrote" this doesnt even know what the British flag is, they should seriously consider moving to another part of the planet. Although there may be an argument against them being from this planet at all!



    Disclaimer should read: For "we" read "me and my imaginary friend Buster the Bunny"



    Yeah, Ill bet he would.



    Our pledge? Hang on..thats American isnt it. Lazy, lazy, lazy. What happened to the great British insitution of writing your own original bigoted material ?



    Shame on you Stewart38 for posting this in the first place! Encouraging bigoted spam mail will not make you many friends. Whats wrong with starting a topic on immigration with a comment of your own.



    To have a serious debate you need to start with something sensible to debate over. The original post is absolute nonsense. I would picture a debate based on the material in your original quote to be sort of like a mad hatters tea party with bits of food being thrown, farting, and surreal comments about the colour of the letter Q. Maybe thats just me though.



    But reading between the lines it sounds as if you at least partly support it. So why shouldnt we reply to you? (And right=write I take it? submit yourself for an Englishness test forthwith )



    Interesting? b0ll0cks more like

    Ok lets ASSUME you dont agree with the statement why shouldn't it be published in a free country . Its only a set of ideas some i like some i find offensive but its not my job to censor

  4. #64
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    Ok lets ASSUME you dont agree with the statement why shouldn't it be published in a free country . Its only a set of ideas some i like some i find offensive but its not my job to censor
    Its not an issue of agreeing or disagreeing, the original statement is utter nonsense. People publish nonsense all the time of course and, quite rightly, they are not censored as they would be in some countries.

    My issue is your original post suggesting there was any ideas worth mentioning in it. There aren't. If you can come up with an example of the DVLA allowing a muslim woman to hide her face in a picture with some sort of source, then we can talk about it.

  5. #65
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive Long
    Stewart why do you do this?

    Everytime I think you are really narrow and simple-minded you drop in a jewel of wit to show you are not.



    CRL
    Is " Jewel of wit" rhyming slang for.............something else

  6. #66
    Meglio del Cioccolato Demo
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    Re: The right to leave

    Is " Jewel of wit" rhyming slang for.............something else

  7. #67
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    Its not an issue of agreeing or disagreeing, the original statement is utter nonsense. People publish nonsense all the time of course and, quite rightly, they are not censored as they would be in some countries.

    My issue is your original post suggesting there was any ideas worth mentioning in it. There aren't. If you can come up with an example of the DVLA allowing a muslim woman to hide her face in a picture with some sort of source, then we can talk about it.

    Noted none of it worths a mention its all ****

  8. #68
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    Noted none of it worths a mention its all ****
    To be fair (in the interests of peacemaking), it has been worth nearly 70 mentions and over 700 views, so . . . . . .

  9. #69
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebecca
    To be fair (in the interests of peacemaking), it has been worth nearly 70 mentions and over 700 views, so . . . . . .
    I dont like being call a **** just because I posted somthing I NEVER said was my idea or agreed with it (all of it) and it did generate different ideas

    To pretend the whole thing was a pile of crap and should never have been posted well...

  10. #70
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    I dont like being call a **** just because I posted somthing I NEVER said was my idea or agreed with it (all of it) and it did generate different ideas

    To pretend the whole thing was a pile of crap and should never have been posted well...

    I was trying to be supportive

  11. #71
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebecca
    I was trying to be supportive

    thanks

  12. #72
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    I dont like being call a **** just because I posted somthing I NEVER said was my idea or agreed with it (all of it) and it did generate different ideas

    To pretend the whole thing was a pile of crap and should never have been posted well...
    What would have been more useful, I feel, is if you had posted the diatribe and at the same time offered your opinion on the "ideas / prejudices" within it and your reasons / experiences for holding such views, that would have generated less antagonism towards you - because many people , me for example, felt you held these views.

    As it is, I think the temperature of the forum has been taken.

    Clive

  13. #73
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    Re: The right to leave

    I would be interested, however Stewart, in your input to Clive's poll on whether the content of threads have altered your views at all (although not targetted at this thread it seems appropriate).

    You do appear to have retreated from some of the original opinions expressed on this thread, perhaps because of the impressive counter-arguements presented here?? Would that be fair to say?
    Last edited by Rebecca; 2nd-September-2005 at 04:59 PM.

  14. #74
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    If you can come up with an example of the DVLA allowing a muslim woman to hide her face in a picture with some sort of source, then we can talk about it.
    This is what the UK Passport Office has to say about it:
    The photographs must show:
    {snip}
    # your full head, without any head covering, unless it is worn for religious beliefs or medical reasons;
    And the example photos are below (just two out of many, but I selected the relevant ones.)

    The DVLA website says that photographs must be a "recent and true likeness, showing the full face, with no hat, helmet or sunglasses, although you can wear everyday glasses."
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #75
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham
    So has Latin. I think the point about learning English is not so much to sideline other native languages as to question whether we should really be spending public funds to translate official documents into numerous other non-native languages such as Urdu, Swahili, Cantonese, etc.
    Welsh is a native language, and unlike Latin, it's still very much a living community language.
    Last edited by Baruch; 2nd-September-2005 at 05:24 PM.

  16. #76
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    Re: The right to leave

    to DS who is far more eloquent than I. However, I will put in my bit of shrapnel.

    It would appear that the original quote that Stewart38 submitted for comment comes across as an unashamed piece of propaganda.

    In the American context, most white americans are descendants of the early colonists - so what happened to the rights and opinions of the indigenous native americans?

    In the Austalian context (and correct me if I am wrong) the white australians are mostly descendants of ex-convicts shipped out to Oz (no offence - just remember my hazy recollection of history lessons), what are the rights and opinions of the antipodean indigenous population.

    And as for the British context - well the white anglo-saxons are also a mish-mash of cultures as pointed out by David James. I gather I am of Celtic origin as it happens.

    It would appear that history has a habit of repeating itself, and is continuing to do so today.

    This may be a naff analogy, but if you take a familiar recipe, then try adding a herb or spice which you discover improves the flavour then surely that is a result. And one can mix and match certain flavours and create new and interesting results and often improve the original recipe.

    However,if the core ingredient is changed - for example using minced lamb instead of minced beef then it starts to become a different dish altogether. (Please all absorb this as it's about as profound as I get!!!)

    I can appreciate the sentiments expressed in this thread, buts lets take a step back and look at a more global approach (and I don't just mean geographically).

    I too got a little hot under the collar when I had a small party where I paid for some caterers to do a finger buffet kind of thing. There were some guests who were muslim, and some who were vegetarian, christian, atheist, whatever (OK so I know vegetarianism is not a religion). One of the dishes contained pork, so I made clear which dishes contained meat, pork, fish etc. (because of allergies, religious constraints and so on). One couple were so outraged that they left because pork was one of the ingredients in a dish it was suggested they would prefer to avoid.

    If I was the hostess in a country where the culture was predominantly muslim, I would appreciate the insult taken. However, I was hostess in my own home, in my native born country, so I was the one who felt insulted, as I was trying to accommodate a variety of people.

    Whilst one does not want to give offence lets get real here. If I had unwittingly offered a dish to a nut allergy sufferer knowing that the chances are it contained some kind of nut oil I may have killed them! Now, that, to me is serious. But has nothing to do with ethnic, religious, moral, faddish backgrounds.

    Progress, good or bad, is inevitable, but maybe along the way we can somehow come up with some great recipes that eliminates the bad stuff (whatever that may be) and utilises the good stuff, wherever it may come from.

    Crikey, I'm think I'm beginning to sound a bit too evangelical. Bye!

    M

  17. #77
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    This is what the UK Passport Office has to say about it:And the example photos are below (just two out of many, but I selected the relevant ones.)
    So a NO to face being covered then. Proves the lie of the original post. Can anyone find a source for all the cities who didn't put up Xmas decorations? (or..er..not as the case mat be )


    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart38
    Noted none of its worth mentioning
    The original post is obviously a rip off of an American right wing rabble rousing piece of tosh. The general topic of immigration is a very good one to talk about, but rather than presenting that you posted what you did. Can't you see the problem ? Perhaps its like posting Mein Kampf as a introduction to the German language - the way it is written and what it is about is bound to come up!

  18. #78
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    Which newspaper would publish this ? it looks like a rehash of the typical pro-christian America email that circulates now and again. They've not even rewritten it to remove the specifically American bits. ... Which cities did not put up Xmas lights so as not to offend other cultures. Certainly every single city in Scotland put up lights.
    If it is then they are equally confused. Putting lights up at Christmas is actually a pagan pre-Christian tradition (as are 'Christmas' trees). So not putting them up would not offend a Christian believer. Calling Christmas 'Xmas' would.

  19. #79
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    . Which cities did not put up Xmas lights so as not to offend other cultures. Certainly every single city in Scotland put up lights.

    )
    try slough to name but one

  20. #80
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    Which cities did not put up Xmas lights so as not to offend other cultures. Certainly every single city in Scotland put up lights.
    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    try slough to name but one
    In *every* single argument about immigration that I've ever observed or taken part in, this happens.

    "This" being picking at individual events and issues and extrapolating those to "prove" that the point of view is correct when applied to the whole argument.

    I agree that not putting up Christmas lights is ridiculous. So I would refer the honourable gentlemen to the point I made earlier about inconsistent decision-making on the part of authorities.

    Of course, I've picked on one thing - DS' and Stewart's exchange above (because it was the most recent) to prove the point of *my* argument.

    And my argument is that any discussion about immigration is doomed to be inconclusive and lead to inflammatory exchanges such as some of the ones we've seen on this thread. It's an emotive issue and always will be.

    No, I haven't reached any conclusion either, I just wanted to rant about people ranting.

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