The right to leave

[David Bailey]

Seriously though, commenting on the Iraq situtaion seems to have little bearing on the culture/tolerance debate that I thought this thread was about? Two wrongs don't make a right etc. old boy.

Amazingly enough, there are other things going on in the world than bloody Iraq, let's not drive it into every conversation about politics.

Also, bigdjiver, please don't make me agree with Gus, I'm sure it's morally wrong to do so...

What about Australians? Given that most of the English complain that we are taking over HOWEVER, as you all so love to remind us we are all technically English anyway (just not respectable ones!)

OK, now I'm completely lost - who said anything about taking over? Or being technically English? And what's "technically English" anyway?

[Clive Long]

<< snip >>
We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the Language!
<< snip >>

So which forum posters are up for deportation for failing that test?

CRL

[stewart38]

Someone who lives in the UK with an English father and a French mother, and an Irish grand-father and a Jewish great-great-grandmother who complains about the weather or the state of the railways, where do you send them "back" to?

No you miss the point

If they DIDNT complain about the state of the railways or the weather then you would send them back

The vast majority of people do moan about the sate of the railways and weather and it would only be the 'odd' people who didnt and hence the need to send those 'odd' people back.

Lets assume you still wanted to send above person back for 'moaning' the solution seems simple as France I assume has a better railway system and weather then us send them there. They would be happy as the would have less to winge about in their mothers home country

On serious note I think some people are missing the point.

[MartinHarper]

No i do not agree with it all

Which bits do you agree with?

[Clive Long]

No you miss the point

If they DIDNT complain about the state of the railways or the weather then you would send them back

The vast majority of people do moan about the sate of the railways and weather and it would only be the 'odd' people who didnt and hence the need to send those 'odd' people back.

Lets assume you still wanted to send above person back for 'moaning' the solution seems simple as France I assume has a better railway system and weather then us send them there. They would be happy as the would have less to winge about in their mothers home country

On serious note I think some people are missing the point.

Stewart why do you do this?

Everytime I think you are really narrow and simple-minded you drop in a jewel of wit to show you are not.



CRL

[LMC]

IMO, the two biggest issues are:

1) The media in this country are incredibly irresponsible in their reporting. As long as it sells, they seem quite happy to use the terms "asylum seeker" "refugee" "bogus immigrant" "economic migrant" interchangeably. One day they are yelling about political correctness gone mad, the next they are outraged at the culturally insensitive statutory authority that has insisted on correct health and safety procedures like a hard hat, which discriminates against people in turbans. The tabloid press and even some respected sources such as the BBC are frequently emotional and inflammatory, blowing up out of all proportion isolated incidents such as those cited in Stewart's post (source please Stewart?).

2) Government and statutory agencies are more interested in public opinion than justice - they try to please all of the people all of the time (hence such things as allowing a fully covered face ID photo, which I agree is ludicrous). Unfortunately, that public opinion is expressed by the media, particularly the Daily Mail, Sun and Mirror, which IIRC are the three most popular daily papers. It's about time that our elected leadership showed some consistency instead of feebly giving in to whoever shouts loudest.

[stewart38]

IMO, the two biggest issues are:

1) The media in this country are incredibly irresponsible in their reporting. As long as it sells, they seem quite happy to use the terms "asylum seeker" "refugee" "bogus immigrant" "economic migrant" interchangeably. One day they are yelling about political correctness gone mad, the next they are outraged at the culturally insensitive statutory authority that has insisted on correct health and safety procedures like a hard hat, which discriminates against people in turbans. The tabloid press and even some respected sources such as the BBC are frequently emotional and inflammatory, blowing up out of all proportion isolated incidents such as those cited in Stewart's post (source please Stewart?).

2) Government and statutory agencies are more interested in public opinion than justice - they try to please all of the people all of the time (hence such things as allowing a fully covered face ID photo, which I agree is ludicrous). Unfortunately, that public opinion is expressed by the media, particularly the Daily Mail, Sun and Mirror, which IIRC are the three most popular daily papers. It's about time that our elected leadership showed some consistency instead of feebly giving in to whoever shouts loudest.

Welcome to the forum !!!

you may find some of the issues discussed a bit beyond you ,but a nice try for a NEW KID ..

[Graham]

Unless I've missed it, nobody seems to have picked up on the point that the original piece about photo ID is almost certainly apocryphal, since Birmingham City Council do not issue driving licences.

[KatieR]

OK, now I'm completely lost - who said anything about taking over? Or being technically English? And what's "technically English" anyway?

Im constantly being reminded by English friends that Australians are nothing but English convict descendants... Although to describe my heritage I am nothing more than a mutt. I have an Australian born mother and grandmother who were descended from a well known slave trader in New South Wales (my claim to fame is that Townsville is named after my relies...) and on my dads side I am Russian and Polish Jew with a German Grandmother.... go figure!

[Baruch]

This idea of London being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Britons, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.

CultureS, societieS, languageS......

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the Language!

Er... which language would that be, then? How about Welsh, which has been spoken here far longer than English? Or Gaelic? It always gets to me when politicians talk about making it compulsory for immigrants to learn English. What about someone from Patagonia who is bilingual in Spanish and Welsh? Would they be allowed to come and live in Wales on the basis of speaking our language? Or is our language not good enough for these people? Never mind discrimination against immigrants, there's discrimination against the natives here too.

If ST Georges cross offends you, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

Come on over to Wales. We're more into red dragons here.

And why, oh why does a certain class of people always equate British with English? There are two other countries making up Great Britain besides England.

Personally, I say live and let live. If someone wants to practise their own religion, culture, or whatever in this country, that's fine by me. As long as they don't expect me to change my own way of life to accommodate them, I have no problem with extending them the same courtesy.

[David Bailey]

Im constantly being reminded by English friends that Australians are nothing but English convict descendants...

Really weird definition of "friends" you have there.

Although to describe my heritage I am nothing more than a mutt.

Well, good grief - who isn't? Honestly, ditch the "friends", girl...

[Graham]

How about Welsh, which has been spoken here far longer than English?

So has Latin. I think the point about learning English is not so much to sideline other native languages as to question whether we should really be spending public funds to translate official documents into numerous other non-native languages such as Urdu, Swahili, Cantonese, etc.

[El Salsero Gringo]

So has Latin. I think the point about learning English is not so much to sideline other native languages as to question whether we should really be spending public funds to translate official documents into numerous other non-native languages such as Urdu, Swahili, Cantonese, etc.

Absolutely we should. The London Borough of Camden (where I live) has a large number of residents who don't read or write English sufficiently well to be able to communicate with their local authority in that language. It's totally right and proper that these citizens who pay council tax to and vote in LB Camden should enjoy equal access to council amenities, publications and facilities. Public authorities have no mandate to disenfranchise residents or force them to learn English before they can find out on what day their domestic rubbish is to be collected.

[stewart38]

And why, oh why does a certain class of people always equate British with English? There are two other countries making up Great Britain besides England.

.

why stop at Great Britain lets have the united kingdom or the British Isle or the EU or the World. Im still English but im happy for my scottish friends to stay in scotland and pop in here any time

the point of the message i thought (and remember i didnt write it) was basically if you dont like it p*** Off


whats that got to do with translating docs of course they should but if someone after 35yrs of living in this country cant speak a word of English I think thats wrong

I sure lots of ex pats in spain dont speak spanish either but thats different , English is the worlds language (bring it on )

[David Bailey]

Absolutely we should. The London Borough of Camden (where I live) has a large number of residents who don't read or write English sufficiently well to be able to communicate with their local authority in that language. It's totally right and proper that these citizens who pay council tax to and vote in LB Camden should enjoy equal access to council amenities, publications and facilities. Public authorities have no mandate to disenfranchise residents or force them to learn English before they can find out on what day their domestic rubbish is to be collected.

Whilst I in general to this statement, I also wonder what the lower limit is? I mean, presumably if only 1 person from (random country) Tuvalu was living and working in Camden, it'd be dumb to try to translate everything into Tuvalese or whatever?

Is there a percentage limit? And if so, percentage of what? Residents? Council-tax-paying residents? Workers in the area? Transients?

On a more general note, I don't believe it's unreasonable to promote education of British culture, including the language, to immigrants, simply because that will help them adjust to living in a new country. Of course, there's a big difference between promoting this and mandating it, but surely expecing some degree of assimilation isn't unreasonable?

Perhaps I should start reading the Mail...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Whilst I in general to this statement, I also wonder what the lower limit is? I mean, presumably if only 1 person from (random country) Tuvalu was living and working in Camden, it'd be dumb to try to translate everything into Tuvalese or whatever?

Of course it would. There's probably an office in Camden Town Hall calculating the requirements right now...

Is there a percentage limit? And if so, percentage of what? Residents? Council-tax-paying residents? Workers in the area? Transients?

Dunno, but I bet someone at the council does.

On a more general note, I don't believe it's unreasonable to promote education of British culture, including the language, to immigrants, simply because that will help them adjust to living in a new country. Of course, there's a big difference between promoting this and mandating it, but surely expecing some degree of assimilation isn't unreasonable?

Perhaps I should start reading the Mail...

Not yet. To hope for and expect most immigrants to get to grips with the 'culture' and the English language is fair enough. To penalize those that don't, isn't.

[stewart38]

I sure lots of ex pats in spain dont speak spanish either but thats different , English is the worlds language (bring it on )

This was a joke but not very funny

[LMC]

On a more general note, I don't believe it's unreasonable to promote education of British culture, including the language, to immigrants, simply because that will help them adjust to living in a new country. Of course, there's a big difference between promoting this and mandating it, but surely expecing some degree of assimilation isn't unreasonable?

Perhaps I should start reading the Mail...

No, that is perfectly reasonable. The irony is that regulations don't "help" - once asylum seekers are here they are not allowed to legally work (and therefore contribute to the local economy), take advantage of non-statutory education (so if they aren't in primary or secondary school, exactly how are they supposed to learn all this stuff?) and are starting from an underdog position because there is a general assumption that they are bad people. Whatever the thoughts on volumes of immigrants, whether immigration should be allowed, etc etc etc - once they are here, wouldn't it make sense to invest something in integrating them, rather than excluding them (which results in a MUCH bigger net cost to us all).

The frustration in many of the asylum seekers I have come into contact with ... they WANT to work, they WANT to be part of society - but they are often fighting a losing battle. I quoted the ICAR website above - some of it makes very disturbing reading. (www.icar.org.uk)

[Baby Peaches]

I am an ex-pat in Norway and I don't get my mail etc sent to me in english. I chose to live in this country, and whilst there are plenty of things that hack me off about the place i.e. their politics (this is the last communist state I think) I believe that I have to adapt to the culture here. When going into a shop I ask politely if they speak english (luckily most do) and if they don't then I still manage to communicate by pointing out things or using the little norwegian I do know. (I know, lived here for 5 years and should be fluent by now).

No matter where you live in the world, someone will always moan about things. In Norway it's the price of everything (5 quid for a glass of wine...nightmare ) but we should look past the crappy things and look at the positives . Norway is a beautiful place, safe for my kids, a much healthier country to live in due to the lifestyle but at the same time Scotland will always be home!!

As I have said to other expats who whinge all the time, "you choose to be here".

Shaz.xx

[David Bailey]

Dunno

But ... you know everything...