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Thread: The right to leave

  1. #21
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    Re: The right to leave

    Right, lets reclaim our culture. We are, allegedly, what we eat, so lets start by closing down all of the Indian, Chinese, Italian, French, Turkish .... (blah, blah) food outlets.

  2. #22
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    Right, lets reclaim our culture. We are, allegedly, what we eat, so lets start by closing down all of the Indian, Chinese, Italian, French, Turkish .... (blah, blah) food outlets.
    Our 'culture' has tradiitonaly been freedom of expression ... however that has been curtailed many times by immigrant 'cultures' finding things offesnsive ... remember the violence that was used by the Sikh community to prevent a play in Birmingham? That type of 'lack of tolerance' is just a reprehensible as the NF / Monday Club scum.

  3. #23
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Our 'culture' has tradiitonaly been freedom of expression ... however that has been curtailed many times by immigrant 'cultures' finding things offesnsive ... remember the violence that was used by the Sikh community to prevent a play in Birmingham? That type of 'lack of tolerance' is just a reprehensible as the NF / Monday Club scum.
    That's a lousy example. The play was put on deliberately with the intention of raising a mob and generating publicity for the playwright and the theatre. They could have continued with the staging after all. If you write a playscript that's deliberately offensive then you have to allow people to express their opinions about it.

    Most examples of your 'many' times are better as examples of extreme fringe elements on one side or the other attempting to distort the debate by playing up to the fears of Daily Mail reading Britain. Much of which is alive and well and posting on the Ceroc Scotland Forum, I see.

  4. #24
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    That's a lousy example. The play was put on deliberately with the intention of raising a mob and generating publicity for the playwright and the theatre. They could have continued with the staging after all. If you write a playscript that's deliberately offensive then you have to allow people to express their opinions about it.
    Hey ... welcome to the UK .... something being offensive does not give me the right to commit violence. A vast number of Catholics were appalled and angered by the Life of Brian and a number of other films (one including the seduction of JC himself). I dont remember fires in the street over those. And how the heck do you define offensive. The play was based on true events if I remember correctly.

    Other true events relate to a family being ostracised from their community because the daughter was raped by a friend of the family and they went to the police ... instead of letting the 'elders' cover the whole thing up. Would you answer differ if the 'community' in question was Muslim or Jewish?

  5. #25
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Hey ... welcome to the UK .... something being offensive does not give me the right to commit violence. A vast number of Catholics were appalled and angered by the Life of Brian and a number of other films (one including the seduction of JC himself). I dont remember fires in the street over those. And how the heck do you define offensive. The play was based on true events if I remember correctly.

    Other true events relate to a family being ostracised from their community because the daughter was raped by a friend of the family and they went to the police ... instead of letting the 'elders' cover the whole thing up. Would you answer differ if the 'community' in question was Muslim or Jewish?
    The offence was caused because the rape scene was portrayed as happening in the holiest part of a Sikh temple. This was not part of the allegedly true events, nor was it integral to the plot. It was done deliberately because it would inflame people.

    I certainly don't condone violence. But neither do I condone people deliberately provoking violence in the name of 'free speech' when they should know better.

  6. #26
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    That's a lousy example. The play was put on deliberately with the intention of raising a mob and generating publicity for the playwright and the theatre.
    I think that's a little strong.

    The play "Behzti" (dishonour) was indeed highly provocative, and arguably insulting to Sikhism. And certainly some playwrights and theatres want to generate publicity for controversial plays.

    But then, it was no more so than "The Satanic Verses", "The last temptation of Christ" and "Jerry Springer: the musical". All of which were permitted in the UK.

    The Behzti thing did leave a bit of a sour taste in the mouth - there's a difference between peaceful protests and mobs storming a theatre, between demonstrations and death threats which force the author to go into hiding.

    In my opinion, the Birmingham police lost their bottle - by ordering the theatre to stop showing the play on public safety grounds, they proved that if you get vehement and violent enough, you can censor something you don't like.

    Salman Rushdie, a man who knows a thing or two about this area, said "It is pretty terrible to hear government ministers expressing approval of the ban and failing to condemn the violence when they should be supporting freedom of expression"

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    They could have continued with the staging after all.
    I'm not sure if that's true - I understand the police said they couldn't guarantee safety, which had implications for the liability of the theatre - so from a legal point of view, they may have had little choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    If you write a playscript that's deliberately offensive then you have to allow people to express their opinions about it.
    Absolutely. But violence and death threats cross the line.

  7. #27
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    ...Absolutely. But violence and death threats cross the line.
    .. and meanwhile, in Iraq, we are imposing a western system of choosing their leadership ....

  8. #28
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    .. and meanwhile, in Iraq, we are imposing a western system of choosing their leadership ....
    Aye ... a real hardship, the recognition of the right of an individual to choose how they are governed rather than being under the boot of the gang of hoodlums with the most firepower ... a real corruption of their liberties

    Seriously though, commenting on the Iraq situtaion seems to have little bearing on the culture/tolerance debate that I thought this thread was about? Two wrongs don't make a right etc. old boy.

  9. #29
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Aye ... a real hardship, the recognition of the right of an individual to choose how they are governed rather than being under the boot of the gang of hoodlums with the most firepower ... a real corruption of their liberties
    ermmm ... and we choose how we are governed ? seems to be that at least they have some say in whats evolving - ie they are putting everything in to the pot and some things - ie the sunni bit is being held off for a couple of years so they can sort of suck it and see.

    Strikes me that over here everything is a bit skewif at the moment - I thought that the concept of Parliament was that the House of Commons was supposed to be about the rights of the people (ie protecting them from the "Lords") - it strikes me that is what the House of Lords does against the House of Commons!

    --------------
    [Fake sig] stirring things up

  10. #30
    Registered User Daisy Chain's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV.

    And the most British thing of all ? Suspicion of anything foreign.

    Daisy

    (Un French Fleur)

  11. #31
    Meglio del Cioccolato Demo
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Chain
    Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV.

    And the most British thing of all ? Suspicion of anything foreign.

    Daisy

    (Un French Fleur)
    You forgot fish and chips made by italians

  12. #32
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    Re: The right to leave

    I think the key issue in this debate is the split between public and private cultural freedoms. For example, a certain shopping centre recently chose to ban "hoodies". In my opinion they would be well within their rights to also refuse entry to someone wearing a burkka, and no doubt some would interpret this as religious intolerance. In my opinion it is a part of European culture that the face is not normally covered, and that people who do cover their faces are regarded with suspicion. Obviously I have no objection to people covering their faces on religious grounds, but I feel that if they choose to live in Europe they have to accept that this practice may disadvantage them, in just the same way as youngsters are perfectly at liberty to decide whether or not to wear hoodies. They therefore have private cultural freedom, but in public must accept whatever restrictions are imposed by the host culture.

  13. #33
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham
    They therefore have private cultural freedom, but in public must accept whatever restrictions are imposed by the host culture.
    What if the host culture said that people who wore head-scarves, or turbans, or skull-caps were not allowed to hold public office? Or earn as much as people who didn't? Or not allowed to work at all? Are *all* restrictions by host cultures acceptable?

  14. #34
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    Right, lets reclaim our culture. We are, allegedly, what we eat, so lets start by closing down all of the Indian, Chinese, Italian, French, Turkish .... (blah, blah) food outlets.
    whats that got to do with the price of eggs ?

    I think its aimed more along these lines

    -------------------------------------------------

    Home Secretary Charles Clarke has taken further steps to exclude and deport 'preachers of hate' with the publication of a list of unacceptable types of behaviour.
    Mr Clarke set out the Government's final criteria to crack down on those who stir up hatred following a two-week consultation.

    "One of the things that is stopping us is the court cases under the European Convention of Human Rights, that says that no matter how dangerous an individual is to the UK, if there is any chance of him being harmed when being sent back to his country of origin, you simply can't do it.

    "I think as a country you have to have got to have the right to say to people who may threaten this country, I am sorry you can't come and we are going to deport you."
    -----------------------------------

    ie if you dont like it here go

  15. #35
    Registered User KatieR's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    What about Australians? Given that most of the English complain that we are taking over HOWEVER, as you all so love to remind us we are all technically English anyway (just not respectable ones!)

  16. #36
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by KatieR
    What about Australians? Given that most of the English complain that we are taking over HOWEVER, as you all so love to remind us we are all technically English anyway (just not respectable ones!)
    I have nothing against them. Apart from one I work with who constanly goes on how crap England is , so why is she here ?

  17. #37
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    What if the host culture said that people who wore head-scarves, or turbans, or skull-caps were not allowed to hold public office? Or earn as much as people who didn't? Or not allowed to work at all? Are *all* restrictions by host cultures acceptable?
    There is a line of logic that pervades thisn thread that says if you dont like it here. .... GO. I'm not sure that I would go with that line of thought totally ... BUT, say human sacrifice was totaly acceptable in your culture and you wanted to carry on with your religious beliefs here ..... the question is where do you draw the line?

  18. #38
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    I have nothing against them. Apart from one I work with who constanly goes on how crap England is , so why is she here ?
    I have to say that attitude really hacks me off as well. I would tell her to go home as well. Personally I love it over here, I quite like the cold, I like the fact that you can see snow at Christmas, I love the fact that you have more people in Camden alone than we do in the whole of South Australia, It doesn't take 3 days in a car to drive anywhere, you cant die if a spider or snake bites you.

    There is a small group of people in OZ however do believe the same things as your post, that if you dont learn the language leave, and all that, but if all the immigrants left, Australia would have a total population of about 3.

  19. #39
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    Re: The right to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    What if the host culture said that people who wore head-scarves, or turbans, or skull-caps were not allowed to hold public office? Or earn as much as people who didn't? Or not allowed to work at all? Are *all* restrictions by host cultures acceptable?
    Let me answer a slightly different question first. If you had asked if it was okay to prohibit the wearing of such items by people in public service, then I would say yes, it would be reasonable to stipulate what people in public service (or indeed in private employment) wear whilst working. Holding public office is a little more complicated because the line between public and private life is less distinct, so in that case I would say that it may be unacceptable to prevent people who wore head-scarves, or turbans, or skull-caps from taking public office.

    It's not just clothing, of course - prayer breaks are another example. If an employee can agree this with an employer then great, but I don't think employers should be forced to come to an arrangement any more than they should be forced to give people smoking breaks.

  20. #40
    Registered User Clive Long's Avatar
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    Re: The right to leave

    Of the people who are British (whatever that means) who preach hate against non-UK born people (normally non-white) who live in the UK, and contribute more than UK-born layabouts, where do you deport those hate-peddlers people to?

    Someone who lives in the UK with an English father and a French mother, and an Irish grand-father and a Jewish great-great-grandmother who complains about the weather or the state of the railways, where do you send them "back" to?

    What kind of Britishness - or Englishness(*) - do you want people to adhere to? Morris Dancing? Pipe smoking and tank-top cardigans? Boiled meat and boiled root vegetables?

    Also, I wonder if anyone has ever attempted to measure the amount of intolerance in each country? Much argument contains - well if I went to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia I would have to behave exactly as them. Is that true? How would you measure it?

    Otherwise I broadly agree with the sentiments that if you choose to live in a country don't try to maintain a separateness from it. However, I like the contrast of London, Turks and Greeks in Green Lanes, Jews in Stamford Hill, Indians in Wembley, Irish in Brondesbury and Queens Park. But also Irish in Green Lanes, Jews in Wembley, Indians in Queens Park, Turks and Greeks in Finchley. Distinct and mixed.



    Clive

    (*) Do the Scots have a clearer, more coherent sense of national identity? I know someone who escaped Dundee because of the shared values of the Dundonian middle-class.

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