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Reply With QuoteNo, not really.Originally Posted by Gus
Recently noticed that JiveVibe have openned up a club in Peterborough .... going head to head with one of Phil Robert's clubs.
Must admnit mixed feelings. I do like the thought of someone shaking Phil's hold on the Central region (competition is usualy good) but not sure if the new outfit are just looking to feed on the market that Phil has spent a lot of time and effort creating. Thoughts?
No, not really.
Gentlemen, thank you for such erudite and well thought out comments. Without such feverent debate on the events of the MJ world where would the Forum be?
Awww... are they being mean to you, Gus?
Is the class on the same night as Phil's?
I had a peek on UK-Jive & I don't see anything listed. I'd suggest that JiveVibe need to work on their publicity...
I think they are there though - see http://www.uk-jive.co.uk/org-details.asp?OrgID=257I had a peek on UK-Jive & I don't see anything listed. I'd suggest that JiveVibe need to work on their publicity...
Love dance, will travel
Good spot, David.I see the Peterborough class will start on September 21. It might be worth them putting it up on the listings in advance (with the start date noted). Ceroc™ did it with the Thornbury class & it worked well.
So - an established organisation (other classes in Bedford & Rushden) are opening another local class in a reasonably sized town where there is no other class on that night? Sounds fair enough to me, Gus.
We're all too busy having heated debates about astrology. What do you think this is, a dance discussion forum or something?Gentlemen, thank you for such erudite and well thought out comments. Without such feverent debate on the events of the MJ world where would the Forum be?
Seriously, I know nothing about that area / history / etc., so I couldn't comment much on the specifics - and I've put my general comments about competition in another thread.
Maybe if you gave some more details?
Interesting...
I've listened to the "you are feeding on my success" argument before and it always has me pretty puzzled.
If there is a market for a particular 'thing' in a particular area that has already been spotted by Mr X, what exactly is stopping Mr Y from doing the same thing?
I'm no business man, but isn't this how it works...? Surely now, both parties will have to work that wee bit harder to grab the customer from under the others nose? In turn, making their own outfit bigger and better?
As I said, i'm no business man so I'm probably talking utter pish.
J.
p.s. Long live the underdog and the competitor
Nothing is stopping Mr Y from doing the same thing at all, although, if Mr X's class now has more experienced dancers which some beginners feel may feel uncomfortable with, then they may just go to another venue close by where there are more beginners. And don't most teachers make the most money out of beginners???I think so!
If Mr X has sweated blood and spent huge amounts of cash in order to create a market, I can understand him being a little upset at Mr Y's sudden appearance.
But life's like that...
Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story
Of course it's like that. This is what the dance world is like...it's all competition.
I saw a little piece in the Peterborough Evening Telegraph about this a few weeks ago and read it, assuming from the title it would be about the ceroc nights but it wasn't, it was advance publicity for the new club. The head man at JV is a Peterboroughian (is there such a thing) and was announcing the new night as a return to his roots. Had a look at the JiveVibe website which was interesting - they had a lively forum (most of the content of which has now disappeared as they moved to a new system) - which would replace instances of the word ceroc in postings with a row of asterisks for reasons best known to themselves. Most of the issues on here were raised on there as well so you have to figure it's a case of different brand, same ****.Recently noticed that JiveVibe have openned up a club in Peterborough .... going head to head with one of Phil Robert's clubs.
I go to the Thurs in Pboro now and again and numbers are usually good so there could be room for three nights in a row. If JV is a smoking venue it may also pick up some disenfranchised smokers from the current Ceroc venue (non-smoking for a month or so now) but looking at their website I see all of their venues are no smoking too since Aug 2005 so don't really know what their USP will be.
Robert
A business is only successful if the market is already there*. People are more aware of health and fitness these days AND dancing is fun. Ceroc markets their product very well and have built on the market and on their success. This leaves room for other players to fill in the gaps created by this expanding market e.g weekenders, party nights, advanced classes, workshops, independant dance nights etc..which then helps grow the market further still. I certainly know up here Route 66 points all its newcomers to Ceroc for lessons when asked 'so where to you learn this jive thing then?'
* marmite eating contests, smurf sing-a-longs for adults, honest politician appreciation societies.......I tried but none of them worked
Good point. given theusual standard of Ceroc instructors, especialy in the Central region, I would be surprised if JiveVibe could compete on that count ... and if they started to I'm sure that Phil could alwys swop in some of his 'star' performers to reverse the tide (a technique used at other Ceroc clubs in the past).
I suppose my main concern was this riding on the back of the success of another. I was there when Phil was getting the Peterborough club going (haveing previously sworn never to go to Ceroc ever again after my London experience) and remember the effort and enthusiasm that was put in, especially by Mich. I could see how it could grate one's nerves somewhat if you've spent 4 yaers plus creating a market for a product that simply didnt exist before then some 'jonny come lately' comes across and without spending too much cash can reap the benefits. Having said that, its all competition I suppose. Will be inetrsting to see how the competition pans out and what techniques are used. If someone was a business studies student it could make an interesting case study.
I'm no expert in these matters, so maybe you're right...
Using the example of Route 66 for a moment though...
Their market, I guess, is the non-beginner modern jive dancer looking for a venue where the can dance with like-minded others. There's quite a few of those people up here, but that market had to be created – in this case, not by Route 66, but by Ceroc and similar ventures.
Arguably, Ceroc have a competing product to Route 66's – their monthly parties in Glasgow, Edinburgh and elsewhere.
So, the market that Ceroc competes in against Route 66 was created by Ceroc.
So there's an example of Mr X taking the effort to create a market, which then Mr Y gets to exploit.
(BTW, I'm not saying that there's any real competition between Ceroc and Route 66 for punters, though it was interesting to note last Friday there was a Leroc freestyle on in Glasgow that drew some Ceroc people who may have otherwise gone to Route 66.)
Sure, it's all free markets working as Adam Smith intended, but that doesn't stop the people involved from getting upset.
Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story
Playing ODA, you could look at it from the other point of view - which is that JiveVibe already run a couple of (probably) successful venues, and it's time for them to expand?
Of course, I have no bias either way - I've never been to either organisation.
IMHO...Route 66 does not compete with any other dance night . Great care was taken to pick a night where nothing else was on. It was created because there was a void on Friday nights, when the CPN Leroc nights in the Westfield halls stopped. About a year later, having had several requests from various people, I decided to try operating a night to fill that void, and invited Dr Feelgood to come in with me. The idea was to bring together the varios different scenes that i Djd in...i.e. the modern jive scene, the swing scene, and the rock & roll scene. Several people on the R&R scene had asked me where I learned to jive......I pointed them in the direction of CEROC(tm)...several of them tried it, but didn't like jiving to modern music. The music policy at R66 has always been R&R, swing, blues, and a touch of 60s & 70s....but no chart or pop music. We have always endeavoured to promote dance and have a table with fliers from lots of different organisations, including Jive Addiction, Boogie Nights, Edinburgh Swing Dance Society, Rock 'til You Drop, Leroc, Flyright Dance Company, and dare I say it CEROC(tm)..........So the market we operate in was not solely created by Ceroc, but also by ESDS, Greased Up, and Club Radio from the R&R scene, and CPN dance Co ( Leroc).....It should also be noted that we have changed dates in the past to avoid clashes with other organisations.....The New Glasgow Leroc night now clashes with Route 66...but hey ho, theres enough people to go round.......So Ducasi......you're correct............you are no expert in these mattersI'm no expert in these matters, so maybe you're right...
Using the example of Route 66 for a moment though...
Their market, I guess, is the non-beginner modern jive dancer looking for a venue where the can dance with like-minded others. There's quite a few of those people up here, but that market had to be created – in this case, not by Route 66, but by Ceroc and similar ventures.
Arguably, Ceroc have a competing product to Route 66's – their monthly parties in Glasgow, Edinburgh and elsewhere.
So, the market that Ceroc competes in against Route 66 was created by Ceroc.
So there's an example of Mr X taking the effort to create a market, which then Mr Y gets to exploit.
(BTW, I'm not saying that there's any real competition between Ceroc and Route 66 for punters, though it was interesting to note last Friday there was a Leroc freestyle on in Glasgow that drew some Ceroc people who may have otherwise gone to Route 66.)
Sure, it's all free markets working as Adam Smith intended, but that doesn't stop the people involved from getting upset.
OK... Sorry John, I shouldn't have used Route 66 as an example. I had an alternative argument involving bio-yogurt, but I thought I'd try to keep it dance-related.... So the market we operate in was not solely created by Ceroc, but also by ESDS, Greased Up, and Club Radio from the R&R scene, and CPN dance Co ( Leroc).....It should also be noted that we have changed dates in the past to avoid clashes with other organisations............So Ducasi......you're correct............you are no expert in these matters
But as you said, you are operating in a market created by others.
It's good to know that Route 66 try to avoid competition – as I said:But if you did choose to compete, presumably Ceroc, ESDS, etc..., might feel a bit put out.
And that was the point I was trying to make.
Next time I'll stick to yogurt.
Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story
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