Star Signs v Dancers

[Ash]

There's always room for disagreement, but if you don't offer any proof to back up your opinion, we're again reduced to discussing different basic faiths and beliefs.DavidJames

If you want some proof then you could always study the work of the Gauquelins. Otherwise there is no ‘why’…it just works. (Just like tarot cards, rune stones etc.)

I saw a program on autistic people and the amazing powers they have, like calculating enormous sums. A subject said the answers just came to him-without him actually physically working it out in his head. There are things we can't explain and the spiritual side is a good example. (Do you believe in God? Are you an atheist? Do you believe that we can reduce love to a laboratory experiment?)

I haven’t seen ‘What the bleep do we know?’ It’s a new film which, I think, actually makes a connection between mysticism and science. It’ll be interesting to watch.

You might think people are gullible about the mystic side…but that equally applies to science. It has lied/been wrong in the past. Doctors thought smoking was good before the 1950s, for example. Or how about the different drugs that have been wrongly given to people. (And equally there are charlatans on the mystic side.)

I think, when it comes to astrology, you’re trying to understand a foreign language-without being able to speak it.

[bigdjiver]

Someone complained to my boss that a program that he wrote ran too slowly. He added a display statement, so that the workings so far appeared on the screen. Thios of course made the program run more slowly. The client took a look at all of the screens full of numbers flashing by and congratulated him on his remarkable speed-up improvement.

The relevance of this? The brain usually comes with a "display" option, so that one part is monitoring what another is doing. This slows down the processes dramatically. The feats of the human brain whilst asleep, or by savants who perform those amazing mental feats, happen because the processes are not being monitored. The people concerned have no idea how they did that. I have, when younger, experienced just such happenings. Results that appeared in an intuitive flash, or when wakening, have turned out to be correct after hours of calculation. In one case the answer to a logic puzzle came in just a second or two, but it took four hours for me to prove it correct, and to generate a general procedure for solving such puzzles. I never solved one anything like so quickly again. The method for drill path near optimization (travelling salesman problem) occured to me in a flash after hours of futile struggle over the problem. I have no idea what the mental process was. Songs have come to me as fast as I can write them down. One theory is that the right brain is doing the work, unsupervised by the left brain.

If it is possible that part of or brain is reaching the right conclusions subconciously, the possibility must be considered that it can be making mistakes subconciously too. Adding 2 and 2 to make 22, and seeing Astrology as a conclusion.

People can be genetically programmed to be more fertile at certain seasons, or to possibly to produce sperm or eggs biased genetically, making it more probable that certain traits conducive to particular careers cluster at a certain time of the year. Another possibility is that the young human goes through a certain development stage in the brain after a certain period. If that stage is in spring when new buildings are being started, the the brain is biased one way, if it is in the middle of winter, there is a bias towards the activities of the adults at that time of the year. There are other explanations for careers being linked to birth dates that seem more likely than astrology.

The Tarot always amuses me. The cards tell the story? Why do the come out differently on the next deal?

[David Bailey]

Time travel please.

Welll, never say never, and I'm a loong way from knowing much about current physics. But I believe the whole concept of time, the past, and the future is really a human invention. There's only the "now", which sounds very Zen, but put another way, "time" is the description of the entropic function. So if there's no past per se, there's nowhere to go back to. But I could be wrong...

Going forward in time is relatively easy, in fact everyone does that every day, one second a second
Going forward "faster" shouldn't be too difficult, if only by such means as cryogenics / travelling really quickly (e.g. 99%+ of lightspeed). So it's nothing fundamentally difficult, "just" engineering.

Ooh! Got another one!!! Are there extra-terrestrials living on earth?

If I had the capability to travel between solar systems, the first thing I'd do (and yes, I've read HHGTTH) is probably not create grafitti in a field in Fife. It's not impossible, and doesn't seem to be quite as inherently ridiculous as, ahem, other functions - but it seems way unlikely.

Normal service will now resume...

[David Bailey]

OK, even by my standards this is a biggy...

First, the easy one:

I didn't say anything about horoscopes or predicting the future. I was just saying it's a plausible theory that you can tell a lot about someone by knowing the time of year when they were born.

If you know enough information about a person's conception, mother's environment, mother's travel habits, 9 months' of weather conditions and so on, I'll grudgingly concede that you can maybe infer some small fraction of estimations about certain aspects of that character.

But it'll be trivial, utterly insignificant, compared to the information you can infer from almost any other method - e.g. scans, genetic information, parent's health history, cultural and environmental information, and so on.

Sorry, you're still desperately swimming in that shark tank whilst I watch and stroke my pu - err, cat.

I think astrology has its origins in times when hardly anyone travelled very far from their place of birth so people with similar birthdays would be more homogeneous.

There may be some truth in that as a plausible explanation of why people thought there could be some basis in astrology 500 years ago. In a modern Western society, no.

Sharks are closing in - any last words?

Next:

Why?

There's lots of science which is ultimately based on belief because we have no way of knowing for sure, and no way to prove the hypothesis. Like so much of astronomy... Isn't the argument is "well it works with what we know to be true?"

True, ultimately all "whys" are answered with "because".

But this "because", in real science, can be tested and proved or disproved, and is based on observations and sceptical experimentations, with lots of people trying to prove the theory wrong. And if it's proved wrong, the theory is discarded. Newtonian physics was replaced with Einsteinian, for example.

I would never, ever base any important decisions on astronomy, but it doesn't stop it being an interesting phenomena.

I'm gonna assume you meant "astrology" here... But yes, it's interesting. As is Scientology, flat-earthism, and other such cultural phenomena.

And, back to our scheduled programme:

If you want some proof then you could always study the work of the Gauquelins. Otherwise there is no ‘why’…it just works. (Just like tarot cards, rune stones etc.)

I refer you to the "Why" response above.

I saw a program on autistic people and the amazing powers they have, like calculating enormous sums. A subject said the answers just came to him-without him actually physically working it out in his head.

Well, I'm convinced.

Seriously, unless you're telling me the guy was also a world-renowned expert on the mental processing and workings of the brain, I'm not impressed by what someone "thought" was happening in their mind. I'm very prepared to believe the mind plays tricks on us, however, creating arbitrary associations and meanings and linkings when none exist.

There are things we can't explain and the spiritual side is a good example. (Do you believe in God? Are you an atheist? Do you believe that we can reduce love to a laboratory experiment?)

Depends on the lab...

Seriously, there's no way I'm going into these areas - my spirituality or lack thereof is my own.

You might think people are gullible about the mystic side…but that equally applies to science. It has lied/been wrong in the past. Doctors thought smoking was good before the 1950s, for example. Or how about the different drugs that have been wrongly given to people. (And equally there are charlatans on the mystic side.)

We're actually getting frighteningly close to agreeing here. Classic example of a science hoax is Piltdown Man. Or, crop circles of course

To me, though, the difference is that poor science gets exposed by peer review, and corrected. For example, the recent MMR scare. But poor astrology - when was the last time an astrologer was exposed as a fake? And, frankly, how could you tell?

I think, when it comes to astrology, you’re trying to understand a foreign language-without being able to speak it.

Wibble.

Just had to get that in one more time...

[Ash]

Seriously, there's no way I'm going into these areas - my spirituality or lack thereof is my own.DavidJames

It is your own...but at the same time it's relevant to the subject at hand. If you're lacking in spirituality then there's no point, really, in continuing this discussion as we're coming from completely different places. Or if you are spiritual then that's important. You could be, for example, a Christian. And that would colour your point of view.

So where are you coming from?

[David Bailey]

It is your own...but at the same time it's relevant to the subject at hand. If you're lacking in spirituality then there's no point, really, in continuing this discussion as we're coming from completely different places. Or if you are spiritual then that's important.

So I have to be spiritual to have an opinion on astrology? Not sure why - do I have to be an astronaut to have an opinion about space travel? Or, do I have to be a woman to have an opinion about abortion? Or a political activist to have an opinion about politics?

For what it's worth, I have absolutely no idea how much spirituality I have - although I tend to run away from people who proclaim how spiritual they are, in case they start on the wibble-route.

You could be, for example, a Christian. And that would colour your point of view.

Sure. If I were an evangelical Christian, hypothetically, I'd be very anti-astrology, in the same way as I'd be very anti-Satanism, Wicca-ism, etc. I presume that's what you meant?

So where are you coming from?

Finchley normally.

Beyond that, I don't really plan to discuss my beliefs at that level, and so I agree we're at an impasse.

So, it's been fun debating, and I respect the dignified way you've handled my ranting attack on your profession, so shall we leave it at that?
(I've now voted in the poll!)

Next controversial topic: Gaza pullout - about time too, or giving in to terrorism...

[Mary]

So, it's been fun debating, and I respect the dignified way you've handled my ranting attack on your profession, so shall we leave it at that?
(I've now voted in the poll!)

Next controversial topic: Gaza pullout - about time too, or giving in to terrorism...

Aww David don't stop now, this is absolutely fascinating. I'm hooked.


M

[David Bailey]

Aww David don't stop now, this is absolutely fascinating. I'm hooked.


M

Well I could be bribed with a bit of rep...

[El Salsero Gringo]

If you want some proof then you could always study the work of the Gauquelins. Otherwise there is no ‘why’…it just works. (Just like tarot cards, rune stones etc.)

Wow. This has got to be the silliest post in this thread so far. And believe me, that's saying something. Something that anyone claims works without a 'why' is like witchcraft and alchemy. Imaginative, but nonetheless false.

I saw a program on autistic people and the amazing powers they have, like calculating enormous sums. A subject said the answers just came to him-without him actually physically working it out in his head.

Meaningless. Do you have any idea how you yourself understand the concept of the number three?

There are things we can't explain and the spiritual side is a good example. (Do you believe in God? Are you an atheist? Do you believe that we can reduce love to a laboratory experiment?)

You might think people are gullible about the mystic side…but that equally applies to science. It has lied/been wrong in the past. Doctors thought smoking was good before the 1950s, for example. Or how about the different drugs that have been wrongly given to people. (And equally there are charlatans on the mystic side.)

There's nothing 'unscientific' about being wrong. In fact it's the most scientific thing in the world. It's only scientists who, in the course of the their work - routinely and without a hint of embarassment - are able to say things like 'Yes - you were correct, and I was completely wrong. I am happy to adopt your theory as both useful, and predictive.' That, after all, is the whole point of science. To correct, and improve. When was the last time you heard a churchman, or spiritualist, or astrologer come up with anything similar?

By the way, David, Einstein's Theory of (special) relativity hasn't shown Newtonian Relativity to be 'wrong'. Newtonian Relativity can calculate the position of the planets (very useful for those charlatans that call themselves astrologers), take man to the moon as well as cope with anything you throw at it here on earth. In science - physics in particular - one doesn't ask what is 'correct'. One asks what is useful and can demonstrate predictive power. Newton's equations do that extremely well within certain bounds. Einstein's extend those bounds further. And the complete inability of astrology to come up with a single useful prediction (despite concerning itself ostentatiously with the future) is the weakness that gives away the big lie.

[David Bailey]

Well I could be bribed with a bit of rep...

Oh hell, I'm back.

OK then, where were we...

If you want some proof then you could always study the work of the Gauquelins. Otherwise there is no ‘why’…it just works. (Just like tarot cards, rune stones etc.)

Presumably this referes to: Gauquelin, Michel and Francoise...

Wikipedia has an entry on the man here. Interesting guy, and certainly his "Mars effect " controversy (wherein he claimed to find a statistical correlation between Mars risings and sports champion performance, is at least worthy of serious debate.

But, to quote Wikipedia, the world's greatest knowledge source ( ):
"Of all the many analyses performed by Gauquelin, all failed to conclude that astrology had any such validity - with the exception of the one statistical analysis that forms the basis of what became known as the Mars effect. In this one case, the underlying results are anomalous. Because of this, the Mars effect has been the subject of considerable controversy. However, it is important to note that the Mars effect is unknown to traditional astrology; prior to the controversy, no astrologer had ever used or even suspected the existence of such an effect - indeed, Mars in the given position should not relate to sports achievement at all."

So I'm less than convinced by the results of one study out of many, conducted by a clearly unstable guy who IMO just wanted to make a name for himself - the Professor Roy Meadows of astrology, I'd say, if I were being cruel...

[Mary]

ESG I wondered how long it would take for you to get involved. Ash, you can't leave it there, you've given some great responses so far, you have to fight back.

M

[Trousers]

ARIES They are extrovert or in-your-face. But they are also impatient and impulsive, making mistakes when they learn routines: they don’t always finish what they start. They are also the daredevils of the zodiac, jumping first and thinking later! If you’ve seen Harold Nicholas (of the legendary Nicholas Brothers) dance you’ll see what I mean!

What's this making mistakes rubbish. . . . . I'm an Aries don't you know I'm right?

[Trousers]

Can some one go off and do loads of research in the same vein as this but on the Chinese horoscope system.

I'm a Dragon (yeah ok ok) It's a lucky sign.

But the only bit I can really remember was that the book I had said Dragons were and I quote Barry Fantoni here "Sexual Artists". Obviously the cheque was straight in the post after that.

I just didn't see the section on Dancing.

Go on someone must have some time to do that.
The chinese system is very flattering it should be interesting.

[JoC]

Saw a book once that gave you even more detailed 'traits' and insights into yourself based on a combination of the two systems. If I remember rightly I was a piscean ox (I'm sure that was a wonderful combination...).

Helps you cover even more bases and stand an even greater chance of matching the claimed traits to yourself.

[ducasi]

... I was a piscean ox ...

I'm a goat-goat.

Some people have told me I can be stubborn...

[Ash]

There is a FULL MOON tonight. In astrology it’s a powerful point.

People’s emotions can be heightened, for example. So it’s a great time to go dancing and have a party. But people also tend to get more angry. Not a good night to have an argument.

To cite a more tangible example there’s more crime on a full moon. Just ask any policemen. Or there’s more activity in a mental asylum. (That’s where luna-tic comes from.) Just ask somebody who works there.

Here’s more info on the full moon:
http://www.innerself.com/Astrology/full_moon.htm

[David Bailey]

Ooh, rematch!

There is a FULL MOON tonight. In astrology it’s a powerful point.

People’s emotions can be heightened, for example. So it’s a great time to go dancing and have a party. But people also tend to get more angry. Not a good night to have an argument.

To cite a more tangible example there’s more crime on a full moon.

I'm perfectly happy to posit a correlation beween a full moon and differences in behaviour. In the same way that people behave differently in nighttime versus daytime, or winter versus summer.

Weather conditions do affect people, of course. And there may well be a psychological effect of people seeing a full moon lighting up the sky. But these are environmental, cultural and psychological factors, not mystical.

For example, I like looking at women more in the summer for some reason...

(That’s where luna-tic comes from.)

Indeed, as have adjectives such as "mercurial" (Mercury), "martial" (Mars), "jovial" (Jupiter/Jove), and "saturnine" (Saturn). But so what? The "leader" of Turkmenistan (Saparmurat Niyazov) recently renamed the month of April after his late mother. The origins of names don't exactly point to the validity of a phenomenon.

(Ironically, political dissidents in Turkmenistan are generally proclaimed insane and packed off to psychiatric hospitals. Full moon or not.)

Also, I'm always up for a virtual fight... In fact, I'm actually feeling more mellow than normal today

[MartinHarper]

To cite a more tangible example there’s more crime on a full moon.

Nighttime crime is a little easier if you can see where you're going.
Allegedly.

[El Salsero Gringo]

People’s emotions can be heightened, for example. So it’s a great time to go dancing and have a party. But people also tend to get more angry. Not a good night to have an argument.

Look, just because Sol trines Luna, Pluto is in the ascendant and Mickey Donald and the gang are all on an away-day to Nottingham doesn *not* make me want to go out and mug old ladies.

However, I have to admit, my loonies-are-on-the-forum sixth sense has been going off nineteen to the dozen today, so perhaps your're right after all.

[Minnie M]

.........Mickey Donald and the gang are all on an away-day to Nottingham .......

FROM Nottingham (or there-about) to London (Ashtons) tonight