Leadable mini-aerials?

[David Franklin]

If the opinions of the various airsteps champions on here don't convince you, David and Sharon Savoy (3 x world exhibition champions, 3 x Blackpool exhibition champions) make it clear that they can't lead aerials safely. That's clear enough for me...

(And you're resorting to quoting 'higher authority' - which may not be argued with - when you can't make your own case, which is always a cop-out.)

I don't think so. The point I'm making is that you can "theoretically" justify aerials as leadable, but in practice it's impossibly difficult. But if *I* say that it might beg the comment "well, you're just not good enough". It's harder to say that when arguably the greatest adagio couple ever can't do it.

I don't really have a 'position' to 'justify' - I'm quite happy to be wrong here as anywhere. And I'm learning a lot from the debate.

I understand that from a debating point of view. But I'm uncomfortable about a situation where all the people with experience are saying "I think this is a bad idea, and probably dangerous", and you seems to be saying "Ah, but I can split hairs and argue semantics to justify it".

[JoC]

Isn't every action of a lead, that leads to some form of following, a lead?

I would have thought it was an overarching term that included a multitude of sins.

Also didn't realise there was any horizontal propulsion by the follower (or should it be 'receiver' if it's not led by a lead but by a signal that is not a lead) in the first move jump. Not disputing, just interested and thinking now, being a mere beginner in these dark aerial arts.

[ducasi]

Also didn't realise there was any horizontal propulsion by the follower (or should it be 'receiver' if it's not led by a lead but by a signal that is not a lead) in the first move jump. Not disputing, just interested and thinking now, being a mere beginner in these dark aerial arts.

That was my understanding too. You, the follower/receiver/whatever, jump up as I, the leader/fella/whatever, help by lifting. Then, as you continue to defy gravity, I swing you forward in a graceful, elegant and effortless manner.

Or something like that.

[David Franklin]

Isn't every action of a lead, that leads to some form of following, a lead?

I would have thought it was an overarching term that included a multitude of sins.

That would be the way ESG seems to be arguing. It's a defendable point. But in that case, there's not a lot of point discussing "is X leadable"? Because everything is under those terms. You could say the point of distinguishing leads from signals is because we want "is X leadable" to be a useful question.

Also didn't realise there was any horizontal propulsion by the follower (or should it be 'receiver' if it's not led by a lead but by a signal that is not a lead) in the first move jump. Not disputing, just interested and thinking now, being a mere beginner in these dark aerial arts.

Every time I've been taught it at Ceroc, my feeling is the guy does virtually nothing aside from a small assist - basically the lady does a big forwards jump. In general everyone's timing was so bad you couldn't really expect anything else. But maybe the guy does gives more horizontal help then I remember; it would be four or five years since I saw it taught...

[JoC]

I, the leader/fella/whatever.

Transmitter.

Then, as you continue to defy gravity, I swing you forward in a graceful, elegant and effortless manner.

An uncannily accurate description of how it was.

[ducasi]

An uncannily accurate description of how it was.

Totally.

[JoC]

That would be the way ESG seems to be arguing. It's a defendable point. But in that case, there's not a lot of point discussing "is X leadable"? Because everything is under those terms. You could say the point of distinguishing leads from signals is because we want "is X leadable" to be a useful question.

So is the question, can a lead and follow together, execute a first move jump without a verbal or visual instruction, but solely on the basis of physical invitation from the person who is not the follower? (type thing?)

Every time I've been taught it at Ceroc, my feeling is the guy does virtually nothing aside from a small assist - basically the lady does a big forwards jump. In general everyone's timing was so bad you couldn't really expect anything else. But maybe the guy does gives more horizontal help then I remember; it would be four or five years since I saw it taught...

In that case I shall wade in with my atrociously faulty memory!

From recent baby aerials workshop...I'm sure as a follower I just jump 'up' when led (yes now I think about it, it seems pretty led to me that part, if I'm not following a lead, I'd jump at the wrong time and it would all go hideously wrong, just we added a verbal instruction in front to know which move we were about to be led) and the lead sort of flings you up and round in front. Nay? Like I said, I'm a mere novice, and perhaps there's more about this move I have yet to learn.

There, for what it's worth I now have my take. It helps if there's an indication of which move you're about to perform, but once you know, it is most definitely led.

[ducasi]

There, for what it's worth I now have my take. It helps if there's an indication of which move you're about to perform, but once you know, it is most definitely led.

If there were no indication, just a lead, would you know the difference between a first move jump and a lap sit in time to complete the move successfully?

If not, then there has to be something else apart from the lead that tells you what you're doing. I think that's a signal.

[JoC]

If there were no indication, just a lead, would you know the difference between a first move jump and a lap sit in time to complete the move successfully?

If not, then there has to be something else apart from the lead that tells you what you're doing. I think that's a signal.

Hee-hee!

Well, your lead, or what I'm now calling a 'physical invitation' would certainly get you some way along the route to executing the move. I don't see why it mightn't work with dancers who are extremely in tune with each other. I'm sure I've heard James say he's not 100% sure how you lead some moves that he dances with Melanie (correct me if I'm wrong guys) - the moves work or happen because they're in tune (man) without need of signals.

Also if we're talking the difference between a first move jump and a lap sit (are there any more that have a similar start?), I think there's a very different lead with the man's arms and body, and I think potentially, as a follower you would recognize which move you were going into from these factors. (In time or not I've no idea...)

For example, for both those moves, once you're airborne, the legs pretty well start tucked for each move. With first move jump the man remains much more upright (in comparison) and uses his arms and body to project the lady up and around in front of him. With the lapsit, the upward projection doesn't seem to be as high, and doesn't have the element of rotation, plus the man providing a waiting lap might give a clue.

Don't know how advisable it is but I reckon if you practised with a specific partner you could differentiate those two.

Only one way to answer it for sure, find a willing partner, some space, cushions etc, suck it and see.

[ducasi]

Don't know how advisable it is but I reckon if you practised with a specific partner you could differentiate those two.

Only one way to answer it for sure, find a willing partner, some space, cushions etc, suck it and see.

You know, I think you might just be right. But then it's about the connection between you and your partner. Not for random semi-strangers on a social dance-floor.

We'll have to try this next time... Which venues in Scotland have lots of space and cushions?

[Franck]

What I meant was that as soon as you lift the woman off the ground (doesn't matter how low or how little force is used) you have already performed the aerial maneouvre. If the lady catches on and helps you by holding herself well and tucking her legs up, you will be able to perform the aerial well. If she doesn't, then it will be badly executed. How well the move works therefore does not depend on how well it is led - the lead is exactly the same in all cases, at all times, for all men, etc...

So far the question has centred around the lead, but maybe we should focus more on the 'follow' aspect.

My definition of following involves matching the lead's compression / leverage, so that if he increases the intensity of the frame, the follower matches it and is therefore able to for example move faster, change direction more responsively, etc.
In that context I can conceive a lead that would not only involve the man bending down, but also creating a 'vertical' frame, positioning himself below his partner, and increasing the compression gradually to allow his partner to jump in the same way that when you increase the compression horizontally, you can have a very fast in & out motion which relies on both the leader and the follower to match their tension. The woman would therefore be lead into a jump (which might require an extra hint from the right hand at hip level, not lifting by upward motion, to get the timing synchronized). Once airborne the leader can choose to apply forward momentum for the traditional first move jump, apply circular motion for the rotation version, or indeed no travelling at all if the floor suddenly get busy.

I don't think that would be an easy lead, but I can picture it in theory. As for other moves that might begin in a similar fashion, I would argue that those are not truly leadable and would require a signal.

[bigdjiver]

I think lead and follow is akin to power steering. So, as been said in this thread, an arial can be lead, in that an indication to jump can be given.

I would guess that a first move jump can be lead in that an indication to jump and to twist can be given at the same time. Once in the air, jumping and twisting, the follow has to use their initiative, and I would guess that landing on two feet is a probable choice. If that move is to be regarded as unsafe it must be because the follow has made an improbable unsafe choice after choosing to jump. Although low, I would consider that risk unacceptable. For one thing the follow may be trying an over enthusiastic lap-sit in error.

I like Simon Selmon's term "educated move", meaning that both partners have to know the move in order to execute it. The vast majority of arials are "educated". It follows from that that the follow has to know which educated move they are going into.

I do an unrehearsed "arial" with ladies that I assess are able and "up for it" I go into a left hand side basket position, lean, dip and say "jump". I them raise my left leg sidewards and lift the lady into the air. She is securely held in the basket position, and my body is under hers at all times in an elevated lean position. This obviously no longer "power steering", and I am applying some extra force to the ladies jump. Actually, thinking as I write, it is actually power steering, but in reverse, The lady is now leading by the height of her jump, and I can be adding a little extra. The first time I do this it is can be very mini-arial, the lady only rising a couple of inches off the ground, usually an indication that I have assessed it wrong and that this move is not for this partner. I have had no indication that this "trial" jump is unsafe.

[David Franklin]

I do an unrehearsed "arial" with ladies that I assess are able and "up for it" I go into a left hand side basket position, lean, dip and say "jump". I them raise my left leg sidewards and lift the lady into the air. She is securely held in the basket position, and my body is under hers at all times in an elevated lean position. This obviously no longer "power steering", and I am applying some extra force to the ladies jump. Actually, thinking as I write, it is actually power steering, but in reverse, The lady is now leading by the height of her jump, and I can be adding a little extra. The first time I do this it is can be very mini-arial, the lady only rising a couple of inches off the ground, usually an indication that I have assessed it wrong and that this move is not for this partner. I have had no indication that this "trial" jump is unsafe.

For what it's worth, I'm far less uncomfortable with this than with the first move jump. The man has more control of the situation, and as you say, he's under the woman at all times. And unlike the FMJ, I don't know lots of other moves with the same lead.

I have to confess though, I'm struggling a bit as to what the point is. I can't think of any time I've seen people do an aerial they hadn't practiced together and made it look good. And I've certainly seen more than a few occasions when they've looked decidedly bad.

There are probably exceptions (in cheerleading, Jason Keogh is a famous one. He can hit huge stunts with people he's never worked with before), but in general you really need to work together to get an aerial to look good. It's not just a matter of knowing the move; it's a matter of knowing each other's timing, balance etc. First time I tried a sit-lift with Lily, it, um, didn't go very well... I could do it reliably with Bryony, but I was very surprised how different it was with Lily. It's equally true of the smaller moves: in fact you might even say it's more true, because it's got to be done well to look good. While there's a certain degree of 'slop' you can get away with when you do a supergirl.

I guess if you/they enjoy it and there's space, who cares? But I think there are better places than a crowded and noisy dance floor to experiment.

[MartinHarper]

Regards safety, my gut tells me that any move where the woman's head stays over her feet should be more safe than a drop where her head goes to knee level.

Not for random semi-strangers on a social dance-floor.

Absolutely. It is possible to practice leadable moves, and to reserve them for people who you know well. Just because a move is, in theory, leadable, does not make it a sensible idea to start trying it out on strangers, or indeed anyone.

[Little Monkey]

like for e.g. first move into woman jumping up along side of man onto his hip...signal for that is the man taps his shoulder on the same side where he wants her to jump on.

Yeah... Just the minor confusion of other moves that have the same signal..... I once danced with a guys (years ago), who lead me into that move, tapped his shoulder, and I jumped......... You should have seen the look of terror on his face! He didn't want me to jump at all, and was thoroughly confused whe I tried to jump on him! Could also have been dangerous, but none of us got hurt, thank god. Can't remember what it was he wanted me to do, but it was certainly NOT involving jumping!

So, for a long time after that, every time I danced with a guy who looked like he was signalling for a jump, but hadn't TOLD me, I shouted: JUMP??????, and only jumped if he said yes. If he looked scared or confused, I didn't...

The only sure sign/lead for an aerial, is to SHOUT IT, and look for a sign of recognition/ horror/ confusion on your partners face. And even then it should never ever be done with a stranger, or someone you've never done such moves with before. Remember, lots of moves start the same way - the first move jump starts exactly the same way as other mini-aerials like the chair, the piano etc... I've been thrown into dips / drops other silly moves etc before without my partner checking if it was ok, and have also been dropped right on my head because my partner didn't quite know how to do the move.

LM

[Andreas]

A lady can't do a first move on her own either - nor can the man make her do it.

I beg to differ. If the lady steps herself through the first move she can make it look EXACTLY the way it should, without the man doing a thing.

[Mr Cool]

From another thread:



Is the First Move Jump leadable? Are there any leadable moves which involve both the lady's feet leaving the ground?

Personally I hate all choreographed moves airsteps or not for me dance should be pure lead and follow I for one can lead most Ladies and men for that matter into an air step it is all down to good technique position and balance and has little to do with strength nothing to do with picking your partner up or partner parcipitation