Do Dancers Win Dance Competitions?

[bigdjiver]

The superbly dressed and flashy move-aholics will also appear on the video along with the winners, if not as the winners, so I cannot see that being a consideration.

I am sure that how the competitors look and the image of the dance is a factor in competition success, and would help to get competitors into the finals, as will flashy moves, even if quality of performance were to be be the critical factor.

[stewart38]

who are these 'move monsters' that a few of you are complaining about?

there are 3 couples at the moment who dominate the top places. clayton & janine, will & kate and phil & yuko. all these couples can do a lot of moves but thats not what makes them stand out. clayton & janine are superb performers. phil & yuko have excellent technique and style. will & kate are the best couple ive seen at fitting moves to the music.

in the last few years comps have also been won by james & lily, gary & hailey, viktor & carol and adam & tas. all these couples won based on their style and musicality, and not on their moves.

in the final at blackpool this year you had simon & lisa, alex (not me) & jane, and tony & amy. all made their first major open final, and all got there because of their style.

alex

mmmmm

[DavidB]

For example, I doubt any Official Judges are going to say in public "Yep, we're biased towards young and good-looking dancers, doing flashy routines, who'll look good on the DVDs and other promotional material." But that doesn't mean there is no such bias.

There is no such bias.

[David Franklin]

there are 3 couples at the moment who dominate the top places. clayton & janine, will & kate and phil & yuko. all these couples can do a lot of moves but thats not what makes them stand out. clayton & janine are superb performers. phil & yuko have excellent technique and style. will & kate are the best couple ive seen at fitting moves to the music.

in the last few years comps have also been won by james & lily, gary & hailey, viktor & carol and adam & tas. all these couples won based on their style and musicality, and not on their moves.

Fair comment. However, all those couples have the moves as well. I do believe that for the very top competition dancers, the moves v.s. style v.s. musicality debate is a lot less of an issue. People have strengths and weaknesses, but no-one is truly weak in any of those areas. But below those heights, it does seem flash moves with poor musicality will get you further than strong musicality but uninteresting moves. (Or alternatively, the judges are seeing something I'm missing). To sum up, you won't find "move monsters" winning or even placing in the top category. But they do reasonably well in the other categories.

[Andy McGregor]

There is no such bias.

You say that now, and it might be true, now. But it was quite plain to any observer that it hasn't always been so.

My own opinion is that, with one notable and now demised exception, the judges choose the winners. You need to find out what the judges are looking for and give it to them. If you don't give them what they want you will not win. If JB is doing the best wiggling, body rippling, shoulder popping on the planet and the judges aren't looking for it he will not win.

My tip is to contact the judges and ask them what they're looking for - seems a bit too easy now I've said it

[Sparkles]

Having seen the finals for the advanced and open categories at MJ competitions I personally don't know how the judges choose between the finalists. MJ encompasses so many styles and techniques, moves and movements, interpretations and extrapolations that to compare two couples must be near-on impossible.

Also, it should be remembered that the judges, like your Mum JB , know what they like and while they are marking on the criteria that has already been mentioned they are also looking at whose dancing particularly appeals to them. On another day with another set of judges the same couples dancing the same way might have quite different results.

You can't plan to make your dancing change for the judges, you have to dance for YOU. You have to be the best dancer you can be, and if that means that you don't win competitions it's not your fault; just don't let it detract from your enjoyment of dancing.

I'm not saying don't try and improve, and obviously there are things you can do in competition to get attention from the judges, but it's not a case of 'people who do lots of complicated moves will win' or 'people with good musical interpretation will win' it's a case of 'the dancers that most impress the judges will win'. If you dance in your own little world quietly in one corner of the room and don't attempt to draw attention to yourself then you're unlikely to be noticed in a competition.

If you don't mind some constructive critisism the only advice I could give is this: after seeing you and Mel dance well in the Jive Masters I still did not believe you would make the final (and I'm sorry to say that because you are both wonderful dancers). The reason I give for this is that I felt like you were not dancing for the audience or the judges or the competition, but dancing for yourselves. Your connection is one of the most wonderful things about your dancing - to see you enjoying yourselves and your time on the floor together is a joy - but in a competition you're surrounded by a crowd of people and a team of judges that want to get in on the act too. You need to draw people into your world, so that they can't take their eyes off you and the only way to do that is to open yourselves up every now and then, do some moves people can relate to, do something that says 'HEY LOOK AT US!' and then do what you do best.

It's my belief that big/unusual moves are not necessarily what gets the marks, but it's what draws the eye away from other competitors. Doing a 'big' move badly will automatically make people look away again, but a 'big' move done well will catch the eye and leave people thinking 'I wonder what they will do next...?!' - and so the 8 bars or so following a big move are probably the most important, that's when you have people's full attention.

Please don't think I mean to undermine your, or anyone else's, dancing. You asked what could be done to help you win in competition, and I hope these comments will help. For the amount of time and effort I know you put in you deserve not to get knocked out, but on the day only the judges can decide these things. Try not to take it personally, although I know it's hard.

S. x
(stands back and waits to be flamed)

[Andy McGregor]

(stands back and waits to be flamed)

This is a great post, very real - and a bit scary. Have some rep

I was at the Jivemasters and saw James and Mel dance. I agree that they deserved to be there because they are great MJ'ers. But I also agree with Sparkles. My advice is the same. Get the judges attention, own the room, have big gestures that take in the room, look at the judges, catch their eye (I know there were over 800 of them at the Jivemasters, but usually there's only 6-8), and, most importantly, know where the judges are and direct your dancing at them, not each other - although you still need to demonstrate a connection.

When you compete you're putting on a show - so you need to show off. Imagine that people paid money to see your show and give them their money's worth. Don't dance like the only person that paid you is your partner You are a patnership and you've got nothing to prove to each other. You chose each other and you're in it together. It's the two of you against the world - the world doesn't stand a chance

[DavidB]

But it was quite plain to any observer that it hasn't always been so.

??? Which competition was rigged to sell more DVDs?

[John S]

(stands back and waits to be flamed)

No flaming from me, excellent post, Sparkles.

Like everyone else with a slightly non-standard MJ style, J&M need to decide if they just want to win competitions, bearing in mind whatever biasses / prejudices / preferences the existing top MJ judges have, or pursue/develop their own style with the hope/belief that eventually it will be recognised as better than whatever else is on offer.

[Andy McGregor]

??? Which competition was rigged to sell more DVDs?

None. But the early Ceroc Champs seemed to have a bias for young, good looking champions. And the, now demised, competition I was referring to is the LeJive comp where the judges didn't have the final say in the line-up of winners

[latinlover]

Your connection is one of the most wonderful things about your dancing - to see you enjoying yourselves and your time on the floor together is a joy - but in a competition you're surrounded by a crowd of people and a team of judges that want to get in on the act too. You need to draw people into your world, so that they can't take their eyes off you and the only way to do that is to open yourselves up every now and then, do some moves people can relate to, do something that says 'HEY LOOK AT US!' and then do what you do best.


.................................................. .............

..................and so the 8 bars or so following a big move are probably the most important, that's when you have people's full attention.


(stands back and waits to be flamed)

excellent,reasoned post ,Sparkles!
no flaming from me

I thoroughly enjoyed James' & Melanie's dancing at Jive Masters,-I DID notice them over at the back there, (and I marked them very highly ,too)but I think your point about showing off(and OUT)is absolutely right.
that's what defines the TOP,TOP dancers for me.
So,JB, if you'll take advice from someone who's only ever competed once in a proper dance competition (apart from DWAS), then concentrate on the performance -cos all the rest is SO there!

[Sheepman]

You can't plan to make your dancing change for the judges, you have to dance for YOU. You have to be the best dancer you can be,

I could take issue with this, but only a little...
Having spoken to judges, and having done competition workshops, I've been advised that finding out who the judges are is good planning. You can then "adjust" your style to suit what they like.
The fact that it is virtually impossible to find out who is judging for most competitions, and that "adjusting" style could take weeks of practice, does mean I tend to dance "my style" anyway (hopefully with adjustments for the style of the music.)

Greg

[Petal]

So then, 'Wow factor' or 'musicality'?

But, you do both.

[Jive Brummie]

All tip top post and no offence taken, so thankyou all.

So, we've identified that the judges attention needs to be grabbed by doing a flashy move. Are we talking a big travelling type jobby or maybe a wee aerial....

I need help

And to ask another potential smoking firework of a question.... Do you think the judges have a responsibility to make sure they see everyone? So if that means getting up out of their seats then so be it?

Just a question

J x x

[Rebecca]

I. . . having done competition workshops, . . . Greg

Greg, could you advise more on said workshops? Who does them? Could anyone PM me with this info. I'm thinking (only thinking at the moment) of choreographing a piece and would value some expert advice, regardless of whether I decide to go for it.

Thanking u
Rebecca

[Andy McGregor]

Do you think the judges have a responsibility to make sure they see everyone? So if that means getting up out of their seats then so be it?

I think the judges should stay in one place and make sure they look at each competitor. the reason I think this is because it makes it easier for the competitors to direct their performance at them it they are all together. This means that some competitors will be a the side or the back relative to the judges - but none of them are really that far away or invisible.

I liked the idea at Britroc where the competitors were moved around for the second track so the ones at the back were moved to the front.

[DavidB]

But below those heights, it does seem flash moves with poor musicality will get you further than strong musicality but uninteresting moves.

You don't see that much musicality in the other categories.
You might see it if you know a good couple to watch, and you watch them throughout the entire dance. But when you are scanning the whole floor, trying to give each couple a few seconds of your time (and then trying to read their number to mark them) you don't see it.

i think the dancing in particular areas of the dance floor thing could also be a bit of a bone of contention. If certain areas are worse for dancing in than others, why isn't it cordened off? Somebody has to dance there and as common courtesy suggests, you wouldn't enter the floor until you were called, hence if you were called on last, wouldn't this potentially be the only place to go? Could the judges position themselves better to see all competitors?

Some judges like staying put. Some prefer moving around. Some organisers have a preference where they place the judges. But it doesn't seem to matter what you do - you always get one couple in every heat who drift out view of the judges. If you suddenly find you have acres of space, it might be a good idea to see where everyone else is.

It would be interesting in a final to get each couple to dance by themselves for a minute before getting everyone on the floor as usual.

David
PS One request for anyone competing this weekend. Can you please put your number on your back with enough safety pins so it doesn't come off or fold up! You might have 5 judges wanting to mark you through, but noone knows who you are.

[Sparkles]

So, we've identified that the judges attention needs to be grabbed by doing a flashy move. Are we talking a big travelling type jobby or maybe a wee aerial....

I think this is where your dancing expertise come into play - you have to do something that you think will be attention grabbing, this may be something quick followed by a pause, something no-one has ever seen before (because you made it up yourself ), something slow and alluring, something with a dip drop or aerial, something that you've seen someone else do and it caught your eye (if it worked to get your attention then it's likely to work to get someone elses!).

And to ask another potential smoking firework of a question.... Do you think the judges have a responsibility to make sure they see everyone? So if that means getting up out of their seats then so be it?

The judges' only responsibility is to judge the competition by whatever means they feel appropriate. They may have a framework for how they are to carry out that responsibility, put in place by the organisers, which may include moving around the floor or standing still or whatever, but no-one can tell a judge how best to judge!
Judges are picked for (among other things) their knowledge, reputation and often, for thier own dancing ability. Once the judges are chosen the competitors put themselves under their scrutiny of their own free will. It is hoped that whatever mothod the judges use in thier own minds to put people through to the next round witll be a fair and just method. If a judge decides to watch just one couple (which I'm sure none of them do, this is just example) for a whole round that is what he/she will do, whether walking around or standing still. If any judge's method ever comes under question no-doubt that person will not be picked to judge again - but from what I've seen all the judges do a (IMO) particularly difficult job to the best of thier phenominal abilities and in doing so make MJ competitions fair and worthwhile events.

S. x

[David Franklin]

You don't see that much musicality in the other categories.
You might see it if you know a good couple to watch, and you watch them throughout the entire dance. But when you are scanning the whole floor, trying to give each couple a few seconds of your time (and then trying to read their number to mark them) you don't see it.

That's about what I'd guessed. Currently the judges don't ever see "the full picture" for any couple - they have to split their attention all over the place. In which case it may well be better competition strategy to be "pumping out flash moves" so at least you are always "doing something" when the judges look your way.

PS One request for anyone competing this weekend. Can you please put your number on your back with enough safety pins so it doesn't come off or fold up!

Not that we are competing, but I don't think Bryony would be very happy doing a certain drop if I had safety pins on my back...

[Sheepman]

Greg, could you advise more on said workshops? Who does them?

They are very rare animals. It's a long time since I've done one. The most intensive was with Amir, Clayton & Janine, Roger Chin, and several others about 2 and 1/2 years ago in Hammersmith. It included aspects of choreography for a showcase, the thoughts of the judges, and much more.
Nigel and Nina do them more regularly, mostly at weekenders like Rock Bottoms, or at Beach Boogie, maybe they'll do one next week...

Greg