of courseOriginally Posted by Simon r
You could argue most 'dancers' dont win comps but names do and/or those that walk around the dance floor at the same tempo regardless of the beat. Some would argue differently of course
My only experience of this was during the Ceroc Champs in May. A friend and I entered the Intermediate section for the first time and were a bit nervous. We would have been glad not to have fallen on our faces and had no particular aspirations about winning, but it is a competition and so obviously you want to do well:
In our anxious state, during the first round we threw in a fair few more tricky moves (drops, splits etc), and were overjoyed when we got through to the next round.
We figured, nothing to lose now. . .
The second round came and one of my favourite jazzy tracks came on - my face lit up and I beamed at my partner. We floated around the dance floor and thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. We were knocked out then of course, but I really didn't care (which is unusual for me).
of courseOriginally Posted by Simon r
You could argue most 'dancers' dont win comps but names do and/or those that walk around the dance floor at the same tempo regardless of the beat. Some would argue differently of course
Interesting you say this. The only footage I have you dancing is from Blackpool 2004. On that basis I certainly don't see that you lack moves. If I had to criticise someone so much better than I am, I did think your connection sometimes suffered during the body control moves. I'm not sure anyone over here does it better, but it's something you really notice the top WCS dancers do.Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
From what I've seen, it's the advanced category I have the most disagreement with the judging. In the open, yes, you need flash moves, but you need to do them well, they need to blend with the dancing, and you need musicality. But it really does just seem to be "moves moves moves" in the advanced. I've watched advanced couples and thought "all they want to do is cram in as many flash drops as possible, even if it doesn't fit the music and is done really badly - it looks awful!". They went on to win...
On t'other hand, I must admit I'd be a terrible judge - I end up just watching my favourite 2/3 couples the whole way through and having no idea about the rest!
My observation is that for most of the competitions, the Judges tend to be people who represent the 'best' of Modern Jive. If anyone should have an opinion about what is 'good', then these guys should. I always told my dancers that considering who the judges were they either accept their decision or they shouldn't compete (I dont think that complaining gets you anywhere) .... then came the day when I decided I didnt undrestand the judges decision, so I simply stopped competing
This is an interesting thing actually...(bare with me I do have a point....i think).Originally Posted by David Franklin
At the end of the day who should be placed? Those that everyone is captivated by or those that have fulfilled the marking criteria? The reason i ask is because i think there are differences between the two.
Every now and then i ask my mom (!) what she thinks about our dancing, their dancing, whoever's dancing. And the reason i ask is because she doesn't dance! Never has and until i can twist her arm around her back (no it's not a new move) she never will. However my reasoning for this is because she doesn't dance she will observe and give me an honest answer to who she likes the most. Her choices are based on who looked the best and who she felt danced the best. She has no idea about musical interpretation or technique or anything like that, but knows at the end of the day, what she likes.
Now onto the judges. Surely a judge could watch a couple and think they're fab, look good, seem to be enjoying it all and overall captivate them. However because they must comply with the marking guide they may end up giving their fave's the lowest mark because it transpires they didn't put in as much as they should have?
Is that fair? I don't know...
Comments please
J
Originally Posted by DavidB
Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
I believe there are dancers who are totally led by the music and its interpretation, for these people the music is King. Moves are secondary and in general they believe less is more.
Then there are dancers to whom moves are King. To them the music is not important they have to get in to the dance every different flash move they know. unfortunately the majority of dancers and judges more or less fall into the moves catergory.
I would suggest the music people are outnumbered by at least 10 to 1 in most styles of dance, which is such a shame. C' est la vie
Originally Posted by DavidBSo that's where the missing invisibility cloak got to!Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
Oops, wrong thread...
Hmmm, thinking a bit about it, I think the discussion of exact proportions of "musicality" versus "moves" versus "presentation" versus "whatever" misses the point. I don't believe MJ competitions would be great with more musicality and judgement of such, it's like adjusting the side mirror on the car, when the problem is that the engine's missing.
Well, my comment, which you'll probably not like, is that Modern Jive Competitions Are Evil. Errr... does that help?Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
I've not really changed my mind on this one since I posted a thread on this topic way back in April.
Again, I emphasize that I mean no disrespect to the people who work hard in entering and judging these things - but I just don't think they're natural for MJ, with the possible exception of various DWAS-variants.
Competitions are fine for ballroom dancing - the emphasis there is very much more on having and staying with one partner. In MJ, for me at least, the whole ethos is one of dancing with lots of people; therefore I view most competitions as exhibitions / cabarets / business promotional exercises, they don't really connect to the reality of MJ as I experience it, so I can't really identify with it.
I know this conversation's been had many a time - but the very fact that it's still controversial means to me that the case for MJ competitions is, at the very least, arguable.
On the topic of judging competitions, I'm fully with Gus on this one - if you don't like the rules, don't play the game. I doubt most judges have the discernment or technical background of DavidB - in fact, I know they don't. So you've got to play the game if you want to win. And if you don't want to win, err, why enter?
In this country at leastOriginally Posted by Gus
Last edited by David Bailey; 19th-July-2005 at 08:05 PM.
I appreciate all the points and yes i agree, if you want to play the game then you should play to their rules.
However my question still stands...do dancers win dance competitions. At the moment i'm inclined to think that couples that are more 'move' oriented are likely to achieve more success . This is not to take anything away from those that do.
An example of this i guess and i hope they don't mind me mentioning them seeing as they're on the vid, but in the first jivemasters Amir and Tas came 3rd place, (and without getting all contraversial, maybe deserved higher) however my point is they appeared to me to actually 'dance' more to the music rather than complete a number of moves. If you watch the vid they're all over the floor covering loads of ground and it all looks good. If you look closer though, much of it consists of travelling returns etc...but just really, really, really well. Now does this conform to the "you need to put in more arm tangle moves theory" or not?
I like this thread
J x x
Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
Hmm been thinking about your original question ...
previous winners of comps last couple of years at least include
Clayton And Janine
Will and Kate
victor and lydia and (carole)
Phil and Yuko
Robert and nicky
dave and Lily
Nigel and nina
all of the above couples i believe do dance (except for dave but lily makes up for that)
and have won on dancing merit not for set moves...
all of the above men show off there partner and completely compliment each other, in comps all couples have met the criteria that was required to win the comp so not sure what your original question means do you feel all of these couples are not able to dance....
if so think your wrong by a long way as i have seen all freestyle and boy can they dance..
At a comp you dance to the judges to win there vote ,have not seen the dvd yet but watched your round and as Dave explained you danced to each other ,and with your backs to the judges in a dark corner of the floor, you as a couple have great musicality but i can not remember you grabbing my attention ...
I think this has already been said, but you need to change these factors to be noticed and then move on to the next round...
All these factors have nothing to do with your title:
(do you have to be able to dance.....)
Think this was a bad choice of thread title unless you are just trying to wind people up...
In answer do dancers win dance comps YES they do .....
Last edited by Simon r; 19th-July-2005 at 10:39 PM.
I personally think that if you show that you are enjoying yourselves and that you are intune with the music and each other you are more than half way there.
I don't like clear choegraphered moves but well practised moves I like....
I wasn't there, but what you say sounds helpful and constructive. But even assuming all the above to be true, I notice none of your criticisms include the one the judges gave of "relying on body control, rather than moves".Originally Posted by Simon r
I'll agree the title is perhaps unfortunate, but if I were JB and got that feedback (i.e. the judges' feedback), I think I might be a little aggrieved too. Because I think it should be about a lot more than "moves". Though of course, it's all very easy me armchair quarterbacking without even having seen the performance.
One thing I'll say about both this and the other similar thread. I really do think everyone who gets to the final of a comp, even at intermediate level, thinks they have good musical interpretation and works hard at it. It's very easy to post here and say "only a very few dancers dance with the music". Unless you get up on the floor and prove otherwise, I'm forced to assume you are (at best) no better than those finalists - they, I'm sure, would all claim they are one of the very few as well.
Ok fellow tigers...calm down!
Sorry about what appears to be a poor choice of thread title..(I particularly tried to make it unoffensive, sorry ), but my question was to ask you lot exactly what you see as being more important to dance i guess, not in any way slagging any past competitors or winners off.
Those that know Melanie and I, and simon...that includes you , knows exactly the high regard we hold for all those people you've mentioned. Interestingly, all of the above, to me, are dancers and not move monsters and so it made me wonder if "arm tangle" moves are so important in competition. The feedback we were given did not make either of us feel aggrieved in any way shape or form. In fact it was most welcome as we had no idea of which direction to try and improve our dancing until said judge made their comments.
J
p.s. i think the dancing in particular areas of the dance floor thing could also be a bit of a bone of contention. If certain areas are worse for dancing in than others, why isn't it cordened off? Somebody has to dance there and as common courtesy suggests, you wouldn't enter the floor until you were called, hence if you were called on last, wouldn't this potentially be the only place to go? Could the judges position themselves better to see all competitors?
Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
Sorry guys if this statement makes it sound as though anyone who wins or is placed in a comp is a move monster...as they're obviously not...I'm just pretty pants at basics....like english language
Are we really aspiring towards the figure skating scenario where dancers have to do set patterns and the judges scores on technique have a high correlation to those for "artistic impression"? I love seeing a beautiful move done beautifully, but I also like to have my imagination stimulated by original ideas. I usually rate original "Wow" moves done imperfectly above standard ones done to perfection, but my favourite showcase routines that I have on tape span the spectrum, and I would find it hard to place them in order. Each is very special in its own way, and none of them look like a potential standard routine.
One could also argue that commercial considerations are a factor, consciously or otherwise (the "will they look good on the DVD" question). This is not just about visuals (costume, look, highly visual style, hair), but about "routine-copyability" factors - I belive lots of people buy DVDs to copy moves, rather than to copy style.
And if the moves are "lots of returns, done really well" (which to me sounds like a lovely routine), that may score less than more copy-able moves...
I also like this thread, but don't tell anyone
Originally Posted by DavidJames
What a load of tosh this thread had nothing to do about looking good on a dvd ...
Not one of the comp winners will make money from a dvd of the comp,
so why would this be taken into consideration for there freestyle dancing.
Come on. don't hold back, say what you really mean...Originally Posted by Simon r
My point was that this "marketability of routine" may be a factor in the judging, which presumably on the "playing the game" approach would therefore be a factor for competitors.Originally Posted by Simon r
I've no idea if this is true, but this thread is about throwing up possibilities and seeing where they land, rather than concrete observations. So that was my contribution, tosh though it may be.
For example, I doubt any Official Judges are going to say in public "Yep, we're biased towards young and good-looking dancers, doing flashy routines, who'll look good on the DVDs and other promotional material." But that doesn't mean there is no such bias.
who are these 'move monsters' that a few of you are complaining about?
there are 3 couples at the moment who dominate the top places. clayton & janine, will & kate and phil & yuko. all these couples can do a lot of moves but thats not what makes them stand out. clayton & janine are superb performers. phil & yuko have excellent technique and style. will & kate are the best couple ive seen at fitting moves to the music.
in the last few years comps have also been won by james & lily, gary & hailey, viktor & carol and adam & tas. all these couples won based on their style and musicality, and not on their moves.
in the final at blackpool this year you had simon & lisa, alex (not me) & jane, and tony & amy. all made their first major open final, and all got there because of their style.
alex
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