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Thread: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

  1. #121
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    UK domination? That's not all!

    Over the last couple of years there have been huge changes afoot. Its now being marketed as a mixture of salsa and jive (moved in on the Latin scene there) its started teaching ballroom, its taken over MJC and a number of other independent groups, and even started teaching Lindy Hop! Last Saturday at Fleet there were alot of the best Swing dancers in the UK, even the world, people who would not before have been seen gracing the door of any ceroc venue, no matter who was teaching!

    Over the last couple of years its become bigger and bigger in Aus & NZ, its launched in Dubai, France and Italy, and reliable sources (very reliable) its now looking to launch in Spain and the US!

    UK domination, I think WORLD domination is more like it!

  2. #122
    Registered User Icey's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    But as a full-time consumer, I have to say that on balance I prefer more competitiveness, as this generally leads to better-quality dance nights and venues. I'm a fickle dancer, and I'll flit from franchise to franchise to find a good venue. The only downside is when freestyle nights (Fri / Sat) clash - for example, last week, Cheshunt and Ashtons - and I want to go to both. But I prefer having too many dance venues to having too few.


    I consider Chesham to be my 'home' venue but other than that I am not remotely faithful when it comes to venues and/or franchises.

    I was asked by someone a while ago why I hadn't gone to a particular freestyle night and they were a little put out by my reply that I had gone elsewhere.

  3. #123
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    Its now being marketed as a mixture of salsa and jive (moved in on the Latin scene there)
    Ooh, did someone mention the L-word?

    { rant = ON }
    Frankly, I think this whole thing "This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa" is utter and total b******s, and I've said so before. It's just trying to cash in on the "sexiness" or brand-recognition of salsa, instead of developing a proper brand of it's own. And no, I don't mean "Ceroc", I mean "Modern Jive". Grrrr....
    { rant = OFF }

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    its started teaching ballroom
    And, err, stopped. For the moment at least...

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    UK domination, I think WORLD domination is more like it!
    I dunno. Whilst I think there's potential for some growth in the UK with MJ, it's more limited, and probably in less profitable areas - otherwise they'd have been snapped up already. You can't throw a brick in London without hitting a ceroc venue, for example.

    There may well be potential for applying the "Ceroc teaching model" to other forms of dance, but I'm not totally convinced you can divorce the model and the dance that easily. I know, for example, that nosequins attendance numbers were dropping; ballroom and latin are hard work, they require discipline and effort, and regular attendance.

    Salsa may be a potential future market, but (for example) I can't really imagine a CerocArgentinianTango class...

  4. #124
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    { rant = ON }
    Frankly, I think this whole thing "This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa" is utter and total b******s, and I've said so before. It's just trying to cash in on the "sexiness" or brand-recognition of salsa, instead of developing a proper brand of it's own. And no, I don't mean "Ceroc", I mean "Modern Jive". Grrrr....
    { rant = OFF }
    Unfortunately to their target market (and I include in that me, 6 months ago (to the day!)), "Salsa" is sexy, whilst "Jive" in my mind conjured up images of the dancing my Dad might have done (he didn't.) (And adding "Modern" doesn't really change anything.)

    I don't want to learn to dance like my Dad, and it's only because I saw with my own eyes what this Ceroc stuff was all about that I went along.

    I don't really know Salsa to say how much of it is or is not in Ceroc, but in the absence of any other sexy words to use, I think it's not a bad marketing effort.

    I don't think you could create a popular brand from "Modern Jive" – has anyone actually tried?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  5. #125
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    Unfortunately to their target market (and I include in that me, 6 months ago (to the day!)), "Salsa" is sexy, whilst "Jive" in my mind conjured up images of the dancing my Dad might have done (he didn't.) (And adding "Modern" doesn't really change anything.)
    I won't deny that it's a mountain of work required to develop a proper brand identity. I also won't deny that anything "Latin" by it's nature is always seen in Anglo countries as sexy, and "Modern Jive" won't realistically be able to compete on that front, or that Sex Sells.

    But to me, that means you aim to market MJ in other ways that don't involve sex - social interaction, keeping fit, and of course ease of learning.

    (Congrats on your 6 month anniversary by the way!)

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    I don't want to learn to dance like my Dad, and it's only because I saw with my own eyes what this Ceroc stuff was all about that I went along.
    I saw my dad dancing partner dance for the first time about 5 years ago at a family wedding - it was a real eye-opener, he was very good. Plus, he was doing double-trouble (!). Don't knock the older generation, chances are they're better at partner dancing than you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    I don't really know Salsa to say how much of it is or is not in Ceroc, but in the absence of any other sexy words to use, I think it's not a bad marketing effort.
    If you're aiming for the easy "sex sells", true. But, to quote Gus "I'm sick and tired of saying 'its a bit like salsa' to explain it to people".

    And there are similarities in some salsa / MJ moves, but the timing is totally different, as is the style and of course the music. I'd estimate that WCS / Lindy is closer to MJ than salsa. Oh, but WCS isn't sexy...

  6. #126
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    (Congrats on your 6 month anniversary by the way!)
    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    ... Don't knock the older generation, chances are they're better at partner dancing than you are...
    Undoubtedly – they've had longer to practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    If you're aiming for the easy "sex sells", true. But, to quote Gus "I'm sick and tired of saying 'its a bit like salsa' to explain it to people".
    Well it looks like Ceroc are – witness the sexy "seducer" couple used on so much of their marketing, and the front of their beginners' DVD.

    I don't like saying "it's a bit like salsa", especially as I don't know salsa to be able to know the truth of that statement. I just say something like "it's a really fun partner dance, with lots of cool spins and dips and I know you'll just love it!"

    But then they say "is it like salsa?"

    Are you then going to get into the complexities of the differences, or are you just going to say "a bit...".
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    And there are similarities in some salsa / MJ moves, but the timing is totally different, as is the style and of course the music. I'd estimate that WCS / Lindy is closer to MJ than salsa. Oh, but WCS isn't sexy...
    Having seen WCS for the first time close up at the weekend, I'm not sure what the fuss is about... But then, as you say, it's not sexy, and that's what does it for me...

    But seriously, yeah, WCS/Lindy, etc. are all closer to MJ than Salsa... Unfortunately, "the number of people who (in some sense) know what "Salsa" is" > "the number of people who know what Ceroc/Leroc/MJ is" > "the number of people who know what WCS/Lindy is." (In my estimation.)

    Ceroc and other organisation would be nuts to try to sell their product as a WCS/Lindy derivative. (Though maybe that would work in the US... Hmm...)

    Do any dance organisation in your knowledge market their classes based on "social interaction, keeping fit, or ease of learning"? (Which are all valid points.)
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  7. #127
    Registered User Yogi_Bear's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    Having seen WCS for the first time close up at the weekend, I'm not sure what the fuss is about... But then, as you say, it's not sexy, and that's what does it for me...
    I would have to disagree on that, especially after watching Jordan Frisbee and Tatiana Mollman dancing WCS at Southport this year Seriously sexy....

  8. #128
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    Unfortunately, "the number of people who (in some sense) know what "Salsa" is" > "the number of people who know what Ceroc/Leroc/MJ is" > "the number of people who know what WCS/Lindy is."
    True in the UK, Aus, NZ, etc, though I suppose SDF might make that less so. On the other hand, in the US, they are still trying to figure out: What is Ceroc?

  9. #129
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear
    I would have to disagree on that, especially after watching Jordan Frisbee and Tatiana Mollman dancing WCS at Southport this year Seriously sexy....
    Didn't really mean that, I was just playing around with what DJ had said...

    The wee bit I saw didn't look especially sexy, but I'm sure it can be seriously sexy when it wants to be.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  10. #130
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    ... Whilst I think there's potential for some growth in the UK with MJ, it's more limited, and probably in less profitable areas - otherwise they'd have been snapped up already. You can't throw a brick in London without hitting a ceroc venue, for example...
    It looks like it takes a population of 20,000 ish to support a Ceroc Venue, which would imply that Ceroc could achieve 1,000 class nights a week. There is certainly still work to be done.

  11. #131
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    On the other hand, in the US, they are still trying to figure out: What is Ceroc?
    Well, if we couldn't agree on here, what hope do those poor Lindys have?

    (interesting link, btw... )

  12. #132
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Cadbury is a recognised brand of chocolate. It has distinct favours of chocolate. I am sure that we could come up with a long list of "flavours" of MJ. Latin, swing, rockabilly, retro-pop and chart spring to mind. Ceroc+ballroom has always been a step too far from me, not chocolate in my book.

    One of the many factors restricting the growth of MJ that has been occupying my mind is the "strangled" new venue. These tend to be "export" venues. They tend to hover about 35 to 40 mark, and to be making a "loss". The "loss" is on door accounting. What tends to happen is that the members who progress there will seek to expand their experience, and to migrate to venues with a better attendance and better dancers.

    I classify an "export" venue as one whose joining members visit other venues more than their "home" (joining) one. These "loss" making venues may actually be making an overall profit for MJ through their recruiting. They may be making a profit for Ceroc. The fact that can be verified is whether they are making a profit for the franchisee , by the use of door statistics from a database.

    Ceroc could maximise its assets by collating statistics from franchisees. It can happen that a "strangled" venue is making an overall profit for Ceroc by recruiting members for the franchise next door, or even more remote. I suspect that there are very many members that have had their first experience of MJ at a London venue, intoduced by a work colleague, and gone onto become a regular nearer to where they live. There they would show up as a "new" member. Already having the bug they will distort the retention statistics. They will inflate the number of members that Ceroc has, and deflate the number of visits per member. If Ceroc is to maximise its assets it must be able to know how many members it has, and how well its venues are really performing. I believe that the membership form should collect some information about previous Ceroc Membership, other previous MJ experience, and other previous dance class experience. I would restrict this to 3 tick boxes on joining, and do more in depth surveys later.

    Back to the problem of the "strangled" venue. One solution may be for head office to collect the stats, and collect a levy per attendance, and distribute it between franchises. Some money from members recruited in London that dance in the suburbs would be fed back, and vice versa. This will mostly balance out, but it could make the difference between a venue that is making an overall profit for Ceroc closing or not.

    Another solution may be for varieties of Ceroc. The established venue could be branded as "plain" Ceroc, and the new one as a "flavour". If the strangled venue is "Latin" then it is more likely that the members that learn there will be Latin fans, and less likely to migrate, and it will also attract more people from the "plain" venue. The result could be more choice and more customers, and faster growth.

  13. #133
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    It looks like it takes a population of 20,000 ish to support a Ceroc Venue, which would imply that Ceroc could achieve 1,000 class nights a week. There is certainly still work to be done.
    Is this another random Forum statistic, like "80% of forum members don't like dancing with beginners?"

    Did you know that 60% of Forum statistics are wrong?

  14. #134
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    Well it looks like Ceroc are – witness the sexy "seducer" couple used on so much of their marketing, and the front of their beginners' DVD.
    Oh yes, they are indeed - doesn't mean I have to like it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    I don't like saying "it's a bit like salsa", especially as I don't know salsa to be able to know the truth of that statement. I just say something like "it's a really fun partner dance, with lots of cool spins and dips and I know you'll just love it!"

    But then they say "is it like salsa?"
    Exactly - now try and multiply that by 10 years, and you'll get an idea of the frustration levels you can achieve after hearing this ALL THE TIME.

    And I'm speaking as a big fan of salsa; I can't imagine how annoying it is to, say, lindy-style MJ-ers...

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    Ceroc and other organisation would be nuts to try to sell their product as a WCS/Lindy derivative. (Though maybe that would work in the US... Hmm...)
    Not my suggestion - I simply want MJ to stand on its own two feet, with a clear brand identity. Salsa dancers and organisers have spent 20 years marketing and pushing the dance, and it's paid off, it would be nice to have this done for MJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    Do any dance organisation in your knowledge market their classes based on "social interaction, keeping fit, or ease of learning"? (Which are all valid points.)
    Yes - Ceroc do!

    To be fair to Ceroc (darn, hate having to do that), the full quote from the front page (non-members) is:
    "This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa which is easy to learn, sociable and fun, and can be danced to any music with a regular beat."
    I'd be happy if they just removed "is a fusion of Jive and Salsa which" from that quote...

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Salsa may be a potential future market, but (for example) I can't really imagine a CerocArgentinianTango class...

  16. #136
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Salsa may be a potential future market, but (for example) I can't really imagine a CerocArgentinianTango class...
    Ahhhhh, to echo Darth Will, young one you have much to learn ... the Jango is weak with this one... but he may yet learn ....

  17. #137
    Donna
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    { rant = ON }
    Frankly, I think this whole thing "This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa" is utter and total b******s, and I've said so before. It's just trying to cash in on the "sexiness" or brand-recognition of salsa, instead of developing a proper brand of it's own. And no, I don't mean "Ceroc", I mean "Modern Jive". Grrrr.......{ rant = OFF }



    According to Nicki Haslam (founder of Ceroc in Australia) she said Ceroc is a combination of Jive, Latin and Dirty Dancing. Even now it's still developing and yes, a lot of ballroom stuff is coming into it as well. Give it another 10 years or so...and I think MJ will be hot!!!!

  18. #138
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Is this another random Forum statistic, like "80% of forum members don't like dancing with beginners?"

    Did you know that 60% of Forum statistics are wrong?
    Bedford's population is 100,000 to 150,000, depending on how big an area you include. It was supporting 4 nights a week. 1 closed because their teachers gave up. Given that the majority probably do not know what Ceroc dancing is, and only a small percentage have actually tried MJ, and a high percentage of those that do try MJ attend a few times, I think that 20,000 is about right for a properly priced and marketed product. I suspect that, in general, the price should be higher, and more effort spent on marketing.
    The estimate of a potential of 1000 ceroc nights was based on Ceroc getting 50% of the market, in terms of venues, and of many areas being unsuitable, so 1 venue per 30,000 population being average. I was also assuming that the 50% of venues in independent hands would tend to include more of the smaller, "for love", venues.

    In other words, it was a random statistic. (But, hey!. I can get lucky)

  19. #139
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    { rant = ON }
    Frankly, I think this whole thing "This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa" is utter and total b******s, and I've said so before. It's just trying to cash in on the "sexiness" or brand-recognition of salsa, instead of developing a proper brand of it's own. And no, I don't mean "Ceroc", I mean "Modern Jive". Grrrr....
    { rant = OFF }
    Never said I agreed with it, just said they were doing it, that's all. I personally don't think Ceroc is anything like Salsa, I said I don't like alot of latin music at Ceroc venues, that's because if I want to do Salsa, I'll go to a Salsa bar, where the atmosphere is right, and people are doing it right.

    I hate Ceroc being marketed as a form of dance, its not. Ceroc is purely a company that teaches Modern Jive, that is why other companies are teaching the same thing, because they're teaching MJ to, its just they are not trying to kid anyone into thinking its exclusive!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I dunno. Whilst I think there's potential for some growth in the UK with MJ, it's more limited, and probably in less profitable areas - otherwise they'd have been snapped up already. You can't throw a brick in London without hitting a ceroc venue, for example. ...
    I've been dancing a long time now, and the growth of MJ is phenomenal! Especially in the last 2 years since so many dance programmes have been on the telly, finally making it look cool! That said, I used to live near Brighton, and that's were I started dancing, Ceroc have tried launching down there a number of times, and always failed. I personally think its good for Ceroc to fail occassionally, its a shame there's not more competition up London way!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    There may well be potential for applying the "Ceroc teaching model" to other forms of dance, but I'm not totally convinced you can divorce the model and the dance that easily. I know, for example, that nosequins attendance numbers were dropping; ballroom and latin are hard work, they require discipline and effort, and regular attendance. ...
    I agree completely! I think it works wonderfully for MJ, as its not strictly structured, but where there is more discipline in a dance style, you need more 1-1 focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Salsa may be a potential future market, but (for example) I can't really imagine a CerocArgentinianTango class...
    No! Leave Salsa as it is! Its doing just fine without Ceroc interfering! I just hope they don't ruin the world of Lindy Hop, which they're already chipping away at!

  20. #140
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    I just hope they don't ruin the world of Lindy Hop, which they're already chipping away at!
    Urrr.. there is a very strong argument that says Lindy would be dead and buried if its wasnt for Ceroc. Nearly all the Lindy Hoppers I know, including a fair few instructors, came originaly from Ceroc!

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