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Thread: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    You talk as though Ceroc can prevent independent classes from opening, or force them to close. Short of subsidising individual franchisees to run at a loss in order to close competing venues (are you suggesting that Ceroc do that?) what mechanism does Ceroc have to maintain a monopoly, apart from maintaining higher standards than those of which independents are capable?
    I "talk" (write?) as though I'm contributing to a thread about "Ceroc - UK Domination". We're debating the improbable future where every MJ outlet is a Ceroc franchise.

    Speaking as an independent operator who considered going the Ceroc route I can tell you the main reasons I decided against were the lack of freedom about what you do/teach, the ferocious competition between some Ceroc franchisees and, of course, that bouncy hand ...

    Franck may be in the lucky situation where his neighbouring Ceroc franchisees work together. I've seen the opposite where the next door franchisee sets up nights just over the border to kill off a Ceroc night belonging to another, smaller, Ceroc franchisee

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    There have been a number of weel discussed incidenst where rival opertors have fought turf wars (quite literally if legend is to be believed). Nasty tricks have been used on both sides. HOWEVER, all this has been discussed before, BESG, ie Before ESG) and I dont think there would be any use served in examining those entrails again. Just take it as read .. more goes on in MJ than you are ever liekly to see one the surface, especialy if you are a Ceroc evangalist If you want a REAL view, speak to Will. Will is about as pro-Ceroc as you can get, yet he does so being in possesion of the real facts of what has and is going on .... hence the fact I respect his position though I may not agree with it.
    I've heard and read a lot about turf wars between operators in the past - especially around the Brighton area. Nonetheless, the question is still open:

    What mechanism do you suggest Ceroc Enterprises Ltd has to use it's dominant position in the UK to gain a monopoly for its local franchisees over local competition?

    Given that outside of London, it's Ceroc franchisee vs. a local independent operator, how does the Ceroc franchisee use the muscle of his/her parent organisation to gain a competitive advantage? I'm honestly interested in the answer, please. All I can think of at the moment is Mike Ellard sending Bradders off with a minibus full of beefy taxi dancers to some rival operators venue, all equipped with baseball bats. But somehow I think that's not quite their style.

    So it's an honest question and it isn't remotely answered by dark mutterings about "what you see on the surface" or who I should speak to, to get a "REAL view", or the "real facts about what has and is going on ...". If you have something to say on the subject then please, say it.

    And by the way, just because a subject was discussed before I started to post here doesn't mean I haven't read the threads.

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    You talk as though Ceroc can prevent independent classes from opening, or force them to close. Short of subsidising individual franchisees to run at a loss in order to close competing venues (are you suggesting that Ceroc do that?) what mechanism does Ceroc have to maintain a monopoly, apart from maintaining higher standards than those of which independents are capable?
    In my experience the ususal tactic is to wait until the independant operator has established an interest in MJ in a particular area and then open a venue on their doorstep either on the same night of the week or the preceeding or suceeding night.

    You don't have to pull away that much of an independant operators clients for the venue to be running at a loss. Ceroc Franchises are larger and more able to sustain the "burn rate" of running at a loss than the one or two venue independants.

    I am not saying anything bad about Ceroc. Their teaching is of a high and consistent quality and their running of events slick and professional. They are just like any other business in the way that they deal with competition. Look at Tesco, for example. They open a huge store on the edge of a town and everybody flocks to the easy parking and the huge variety of good quality goods all in one place. The small independant butchers, bakers and candlestick makers in town with horrendous parking outside their shops go out of business leaving a city centre full of charity shops. For the consumer this is, on the whole not a major loss, until one day you decide that you want something that is not in Tescos and you find that there is no other choice of store.

    So if you are happy with what Ceroc are giving you then everything is utterly fine. If you want something that is quite unique like Jango, Hipsters, WCS, etc then you can find it because these are sufficiently different from Ceroc for Ceroc not to be eyeing them up as a potential source of customers. They seem happy to live and let live.

    The independant operators that are very vunerable are the ones that are those that are selling something that is almost like Ceroc (to the point where most people wouldn't know the difference) so that Ceroc can open up near them, slice out enough customers to make them no longer profitable, and take the hit until the independant operator goes bust or decides that resistance is futile and sells out.

    The independant has done the hard work of establishing an interest in MJ in a place that was previously not served and built up the numbers, establishing a market where there was none before. They may well be aggreived that Ceroc comes along and pushes them out of a market that they established. Life is tough and business is tougher.

    To summarise.

    Ceroc has its ways, like any other business, of making life uncomfortable for businesses smaller than themselves and can use their size to put up with the pain for longer than the smaller business.

    Around any core business there will be niche operators offering something truly unique. The core business will leave them alone because they don't either have the interest (because the market is small) or skills. The "ME TOO" business are a small loss while the ones with a unique selling point are a much greater loss (they usually down size and carry a niche market with them).

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I "talk" (write?) as though I'm contributing to a thread about "Ceroc - UK Domination". We're debating the improbable future where every MJ outlet is a Ceroc franchise.
    Yes - and I'm asking how you imagine we might end up in that situation unless every Ceroc franchise offers a higher quality product than any competing independent operator. Otherwise we might as well debate "Ceroc domination on Mars" and it would be just as plausible.

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    Ceroc Franchises are larger and more able to sustain the "burn rate" of running at a loss than the one or two venue independants.
    Can you justify this statement? Some franchises are single venues. If a large franchise is cross-subsidising, then it's the franchise that is at fault, not Ceroc Enterprises.
    Look at Tesco, for example.
    Tesco negotiates aggressive discounts with its suppliers that it is then able to pass on to its customers. Tesco would never have been able to supplant high-street shops if its products were not in the first instance, cheaper. I cannot see how Ceroc Enterprises can pass that same kind of benefit on to its franchises.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    The independant has done the hard work of establishing an interest in MJ in a place that was previously not served and built up the numbers, establishing a market where there was none before. They may well be aggreived that Ceroc comes along and pushes them out of a market that they established.
    Where do you know that this exact scenario has happened?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    Ceroc has its ways, like any other business, of making life uncomfortable for businesses smaller than themselves and can use their size to put up with the pain for longer than the smaller business.
    Aargh. Yes, but HOW? Each Ceroc franchise is a separate business, and doesn't as far as I know get subsidised by Ceroc. In fact, because of the franchising fee, each Ceroc night is at a disadvantage to every independent operator who keeps 100% of their door money.

    So to summarize: lots of innuendo, lots of talk about large organisations being anti-competitive, but no real substance to that argument yet.

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    In my experience the ususal tactic is to wait until the independant operator has established an interest in MJ in a particular area and then open a venue on their doorstep either on the same night of the week or the preceeding or suceeding night.

    You don't have to pull away that much of an independant operators clients for the venue to be running at a loss. Ceroc Franchises are larger and more able to sustain the "burn rate" of running at a loss than the one or two venue independants.
    I really don't think that is accurate. Any Ceroc franchise is not intrinsically larger or better funded than an independent. There is no fund that we can dip into if we run at a loss, and many Ceroc franchises have closed venues after losing money for a while.
    In fact most independents do not intend to make a profit on their night, but want to either offer something different, or usually get involved in the 'glamourous' world of dance classes... The costs for Ceroc franchisees are usually higher than independents as they have to pay a franchise fee, fund taxi-dancers, train teachers, etc... So in theory, any independent would have a financial head-start on a Franchisee.
    I am not arguing that some Ceroc franchises or independents have not used ruthless business tactics in the past, I'm sure they have, simply that there is no built-in strength or ability to 'sustain the "burn rate" you mention.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    In my experience the ususal tactic is to wait until the independant operator has established an interest in MJ in a particular area and then open a venue on their doorstep either on the same night of the week or the preceeding or suceeding night.
    Interesting as I have noticed the exact opposite, so it seems there is a marked difference between the South-east and the rest of the U.K.
    It might be that as Andy McGregor says, there are no real 'undeveloped' areas down South.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    There seems to be a question popping up on this thread. That question is "how could Ceroc push out the small independent operator?". The answer is that Ceroc franchisees can take a long-term view. Consider a Ceroc Franchisee who has 10 venues already. Let's say they decide to set up in a town which only has independent operators. Of course Ceroc need to come in and establish themselves quickly - but they can take a longer term view with their business plan than the independent operator. As their overall operation makes a large profit they can sustain a loss-making venue for longer than an independent with one or two venues. That Ceroc Franchisee can advertise more heavily and for longer than the local guy because the funding comes from the established Ceroc venues. The Ceroc Franchisee can use price promotion for longer because he doesn't depend on the income from that one venue to cover his overheads. This is classic business studies in action. Maybe someone should do their PhD project on it.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    There seems to be a question popping up on this thread. That question is "how could Ceroc push out the small independent operator?". The answer is that Ceroc franchisees can take a long-term view. Consider a Ceroc Franchisee who has 10 venues already. Let's say they decide to set up in a town which only has independent operators. Of course Ceroc need to come in and establish themselves quickly - but they can take a longer term view with their business plan than the independent operator. As their overall operation makes a large profit they can sustain a loss-making venue for longer than an independent with one or two venues. That Ceroc Franchisee can advertise more heavily and for longer than the local guy because the funding comes from the established Ceroc venues. The Ceroc Franchisee can use price promotion for longer because he doesn't depend on the income from that one venue to cover his overheads. This is classic business studies in action. Maybe someone should do their PhD project on it.
    Right then. So your (potential) beef isn't with Ceroc Enterprises (which outside of London operates no venues) - or with the Ceroc 'product'. It's with large Ceroc franchises who have the power to cross-subsidise their own evenngs.

    Does that mean you'd have the same sympathy for a single-venue Ceroc franchisee who was being run out of town by a 10-venue independent operator using the same tactics should that situation occur?

    Where do you know of by the way, where a large Ceroc franchise has used this tactic?

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Right then. So your (potential) beef isn't with Ceroc Enterprises (which outside of London operates no venues) - or with the Ceroc 'product'. It's with large Ceroc franchises who have the power to cross-subsidise their own evenngs.
    I have no beef at all. When I've got 10 venues it's what I'm going to do

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Does that mean you'd have the same sympathy for a single-venue Ceroc franchisee who was being run out of town by a 10-venue independent operator using the same tactics should that situation occur?
    Of course I have sympathy. In the same way I have sympathy for the small DIY store that has to close when B&Q or Homebase open up in town. It's progress. What the small DIY store guy needs to do is change career or apply for a job in the B&Q.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Where do you know of by the way, where a large Ceroc franchise has used this tactic?
    I could say but I don't think it would stay posted for long

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    I really don't think that is accurate. Any Ceroc franchise is not intrinsically larger or better funded than an independent. There is no fund that we can dip into if we run at a loss, and many Ceroc franchises have closed venues after losing money for a while.
    Franck. You are in a much better position to comment (being on the inside) than me. I am just a punter that knows and talks to a number of independant operators. So I only know their feelings and what I see. The simple thing is that if another operator who has 7 profitable venues opens a competing venue near your one venue (making both the competing venues unprofitable) then you still have the situation with the larger operator making money from 7 venues and a loss at one venue while the independant is only making a loss that their one venue. Survival is then only a question of who runs out of money or faith first. Sometimes Ceroc has given up first and sometimes the independant has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    In fact most independents do not intend to make a profit on their night, but want to either offer something different, or usually get involved in the 'glamourous' world of dance classes... The costs for Ceroc franchisees are usually higher than independents as they have to pay a franchise fee, fund taxi-dancers, train teachers, etc... So in theory, any independent would have a financial head-start on a Franchisee.
    Yes, Oh yes, I have seen my share of people doing MJ lessons because they like the air of "glamour". A lot have started because they are fed up of themselves and their friends having to drive 20 miles to get to a class and eventually think "why don't I just do my own". Because the independants have a financial head start (I can see your point in this respect) they can start dance classes in areas that have no previously proven and established clientele. They sustain the losses while building the business up out of their own private means for reasons as varied as the people themselves. The taxi dancers are usually partners, wifes, friends at the start and then they are drawn from the clientele in the same way as Ceroc does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    I am not arguing that some Ceroc franchises or independents have not used ruthless business tactics in the past, I'm sure they have, simply that there is no built-in strength or ability to 'sustain the "burn rate" you mention.
    Well Franck, as I said, you are in a better position to know as you are doing this stuff for real. Most business I know use their profitable units to shore up their unprofitable ones provided they are convinced that the unprofitable one can be turned into profitablity within a reasonable time (either by competion going out of business, or what was wrong internally being put right). To me, the competition amongst all parties can look pretty ruthless down here and it is not always Ceroc that is at the centre of the scrapping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    Interesting as I have noticed the exact opposite, so it seems there is a marked difference between the South-east and the rest of the U.K.
    It might be that as Andy McGregor says, there are no real 'undeveloped' areas down South.
    It also seems toto me that there are few undeveloped areas down here. Some people from less well served parts of the country are quite envious when I tell them that I can dance in at least 3 places within 1 hours drive or where I live every night of the week. I am envious of the people that live in London because of the quality and variety of dance events they can go to. Londons population density can support those nobers and variety.

    I never argued for or against Ceroc or independants. I just remarked that competition was pretty tough everywhere and there was always a place for a product with a unique selling point. If there was only Ceroc then I would feel pretty sad about that because Ceroc doesn't fullfill everything that I want from MJ. I quite like the "something different" that some independants bring to the MJ scene.

    Some operators have at sometime engaged in activities that I feel are "dishonourable" at some time. One thing is for sure. Business is tough and it is no place for amateurs. I certainly enjoy being just a punter, paying my money, enjoying my dancing without being beholding to any one organisation and letting all the "politics" crap go over my head.

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    and letting all the "politics" crap go over my head.
    Along with a number of fairly willing partners

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    Well Franck, as I said, you are in a better position to know as you are doing this stuff for real. Most business I know use their profitable units to shore up their unprofitable ones provided they are convinced that the unprofitable one can be turned into profitablity within a reasonable time (either by competion going out of business, or what was wrong internally being put right). To me, the competition amongst all parties can look pretty ruthless down here and it is not always Ceroc that is at the centre of the scrapping.
    It seems we agree, Ceroc is not the source of the problem. Ethical / non ethical business practises are the crux. Ceroc is an organization of individual Franchisees, so in that respect cover a spectrum of attitudes to business. I believe being part of Ceroc helps me offer higher quality and expertise at all my nights, but doesn't not give me an immediate business advantage.
    Andy McGregor intends to dominate his own geographic area by stifling competition once he becomes large enough, which might work for him, but personally, I invest profits from my existing nights into opening new venues in areas where there is little or no dancing!
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    I quite like the "something different" that some independants bring to the MJ scene.

    .
    I was wondering exactly what this statement means. It has been used a lot and Im still unsure.

    Could you give me an example of what an independant operator has brought to the MJ world in recent past? Im not asking to make a point I genuinely want to know.

    Of course lets not forget that Ceroc would, i imagine, only be looking to absorb those who operate in the same manner.

    Speaking from a point of view of a dancer living in the North of England (East and West) I can safely say I dont know of any independant operator that has brought anything new at all. They are all doing pretty much the same thing!

    A couple of organisations tried advanced classes to no avail but aside from that what would people lose if they were gobbled up by the Ceroc independant-eating machine

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    Could you give me an example of what an independant operator has brought to the MJ world in recent past?
    Well, as a simple example of "something different", Bristol's Leroc hideaways allegedly teach footwork, where Ceroc doesn't.

    Meanwhile Gloucestershire now has two independants teaching MJ/Swing mixes - they have a different approach to Ceroc.

    I really should get round to going to the Blitz class in Birmingham and see what that's like.

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    I was wondering exactly what this statement means. It has been used a lot and Im still unsure.

    Could you give me an example of what an independant operator has brought to the MJ world in recent past? Im not asking to make a point I genuinely want to know.
    Rebel Roc was an independant operator and brought WCS dancers and latin american dancers Rebel Yell (I day event). That was a new revelation for me at the time. Jump and Jive brought me Nigel and Nina which brought blues dancing and my first real understanding of lead, follow, timing, precision, musicality, performance - also Andy and Rena introduced me to airsteps and the concept of "smooth lindy". Mikey at Brighton introduced me to "strictly sinful" - I don't like it myself but it is sure different. Latin dance styling came to me from the independants and made its way into Ceroc in a much smaller way some 9 month later. The fusion of Jive and Tango was brought to me by Amir when he cme to the UK some 3-4 years ago. The music you get at a Jango night (from TWK) is most unlike anything you would hear at a Ceroc venue. James and Bridget HAmilton introduced me to the idea that the man can dance and spin as well instead of just standing about waving his arms with a woman in close proximity - they also introduced crossovers from jazz and lindy dancing. Nelson and Karen Rose from Exeter introduced to me the idea that old musicals were great places to look for dance (as well as too many other things to list). Viktor for body styling and the focus being on the woman. I could go on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    Speaking from a point of view of a dancer living in the North of England (East and West) I can safely say I dont know of any independant operator that has brought anything new at all. They are all doing pretty much the same thing!
    I don't know your area of the world very well but I do know of one person who is operating independantly in Huddersfield whose style of jive is much more music orientated, smoother, more geared towards slower and more soulful music. I am not saying that is better or worse than anything else just that it is nice to have the option of something different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    A couple of organisations tried advanced classes to no avail but aside from that what would people lose if they were gobbled up by the Ceroc independant-eating machine
    Did you try these advanced classes? Did you learn anything new from them? Did you dance to their new and challenging music? Did it make you uncomfortable being out of your comfort zone or did it make you feel exhilerated?

    Slightly at a tangent to the thread. I recently went to Southport weekender for the first time. I must say that I although there were teachers there that I really enjoyed they were mostly the ones that I encounter down south. It did leave me wondering where all the innovatie teachers from the north of the country were? It was one of the reasons that I travelled all that way to discover the new teachers and new dancers and apart from the northern dancers it felt like the south had be transplanted to the north.

    Trying new things is always exhilerating for me. That is why I am a research scientist.

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    ........lots.......
    I see. That sounds pretty good. It is interesting to know what all these companies actually do as I dont really get chance to get down there much.


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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    Speaking from a point of view of a dancer living in the North of England (East and West) I can safely say I dont know of any independant operator that has brought anything new at all. They are all doing pretty much the same thing!
    Errr ... what about Sue Freeman, one of the finest dnacers to grace a MJ floor? Cool Catz has attempted to be imitated but never matched in its short but beautiful life ( ). Dont forget that its been the non-Ceroc clubs that have been trying to push Blues and WCS dancing in the region as well. AND before anyone flames me for stuff I havent said, I'll be the first to say that the standard of teaching at Ceroc venues in the N West beats any compeititor organisation (with the exception of Sue F of course )

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    Andy McGregor intends to dominate his own geographic area by stifling competition once he becomes large enough, which might work for him, but personally, I invest profits from my existing nights into opening new venues in areas where there is little or no dancing!
    What I intend to do is operate normal business practice. Organic growth requires that I invest the income from the profitable parts of my business to develop and grow the business. You need to do that whether you are entering an area unopposed or with existing and competing businesses. And when you compete you don't do it with one hand tied behind your back. - you use every method legally available to you. To do less would be to sell your business short.

    Franck has talked about investing in developing Ceroc in new areas. The funding from this must come from somewhere - is it the income from other nights?

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Franck has talked about investing in developing Ceroc in new areas. The funding from this must come from somewhere - is it the income from other nights?
    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    personally, I invest profits from my existing nights into opening new venues in areas where there is little or no dancing!
    As I said in the bit you quoted from my post, I do indeed use profits from established nights to open new areas. In some cases it might take years of substantial losses to get a night off the ground. It took 2 years for Aberdeen and Dundee, for example. Dundee and Aberdeen are now doing well and are funding the newer nights like Stirling, Perth and soon Inverness.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Thumbs up Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    Rebel Roc. . . . etc etc
    Fab couple of posts, very well expressed. Kind of what I was trying to say just much more eloquently done

    NTV
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