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Thread: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

  1. #61
    Commercial Operator Swinging bee's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I wonder what track they'd be playing? Let's ask Mick
    "I just wanna bounce the night away"

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ODA Mode On

    So ... lets not pussy-foot about this topic anymore. Ceroc is clearly on the road for UK dominance. Already its two main (only?) SE rivals have been assimilated (Rebel Roc and Jive Bug). Hipsters has been demised ( ) and now nothing stands between them painting the rest of the UK Orange. No doubt Mo'jive and Blitz are being approached and 'negotiated with'. Knowing what I do about Blitz this should be interesting but Ceroc has the edge in size, funding, instructors and market muscle power. The end of the 'independents' is now in sight. I predict that this time next year there will only be a small enclave of LeRocers hanging out round Bristol, still insisting on stepping back on the left foot.

    The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc.

    ODA Mode Off


    So, idle speculation or a prediction of the future. what do you think Mr McGregor?
    Is this a case of having a go at someone because they are successful?

    There's some suggestion on this thread about Ceroc actively targeting competitors for takeover or to put them out of business. Maybe they do Gus, but maybe some of the independent operators reach a point where they want to get out and see selling to Ceroc as a good route, or even that in moving under the Ceroc umbrella they can have a more successful business.

    I don't know why the popularity of Hipsters declined, but I'm pretty certain it wasn't because everyone suddenly started going to Ceroc run venues.

    The bigger Ceroc franchisees have a good base of customers to sell other products to and now you can really see that happening. There's a whole range of other dance styles going on - latin and ballroom classes, salsa, WCS, Tango. Surely that's a good thing? IMHO it goes a long way to providing something for everyone, particularly when the good DJs are capable of playing music that allows all these styles to be interpreted into MJ.

    I think punters vote with their feet - Ceroc has a successful formula, sure the business goes up and down, weather, venue, facilities, teachers, taxis, other dancers, all these factors affect the business, but on the whole I think it seems to work well. I may be wrong but you appear to dislike the Ceroc organisation, yet I suspect you attend some Ceroc venues? I've seen all the fantastic dancers you mention (Amir, Viktor, Nina, Nigel, DavidB) at Ceroc run freestyle events in the last year. If it's good enough for you and for them, it's good enough for me.

    I don't see this thread as adding anything other than attempting to stir up anti-Ceroc feelings! What's your real point Gus?

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana Man
    I don't see this thread as adding anything other than attempting to stir up anti-Ceroc feelings! What's your real point Gus?
    I think this thread is about possibility of Ceroc totally dominating the UK MJ scene. It's anti-possiblefuture in the way that George Orwell's 1984 was. Gus has asked us to debate a possiblefuture where every venue in the UK that teaches MJ is a Ceroc venue. He's not asking us to debate the current situation where the likes of Amir, Gus, Andy McGregor, Banana Man, etc, etc go to Ceroc venues. He's asking us to debate a possible future where we would have no choice.

    And, we're not anti-Ceroc on here. After all, it's a Ceroc forum. What we are, from time to time, is anti some of the things that Ceroc does. And often Ceroc will agree with us because they make changes based on the things we write - look at the Ceroc champs for an example

    p.s. Ooh! My power's just gone up to 5. I can feel it throbbing through my veins

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I think this thread is about possibility of Ceroc totally dominating the UK MJ scene. It's anti-possiblefuture in the way that George Orwell's 1984 was. Gus has asked us to debate a possiblefuture where every venue in the UK that teaches MJ is a Ceroc venue...
    Dominate: "To exert a supreme, guiding influence on or over"
    Someone to tell the MJ world what a particular move is called?

    Dominate: "To enjoy a commanding, controlling position in"
    Someone to set recognised minimum standards for teachers?
    Someone to provide management expertise?
    Someone to market MJ on a international scale?
    Someone to provide continuity in the event of ill-health of personnel?

    Dominate: "be larger in number, quantity, power, status or importance"
    The biggest because it is the best?

    There is no possibility of every venue being "Ceroc". Most of the population will want something slightly different, and there will be sufficient aggregations of such people to support other MJ forms. The best Ceroc can hope for is to provide a service that most MJ candidates will buy, and it seems to be doing that.
    Last edited by bigdjiver; 20th-July-2005 at 12:55 PM.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    And, we're not anti-Ceroc on here. After all, it's a Ceroc forum.
    Aha ha ha aha aha ha ha

    How many things that Ceroc does do you have to be 'anti' before you're 'anti-Ceroc', then?

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    How many things that Ceroc does do you have to be 'anti' before you're 'anti-Ceroc', then?
    I don't think the thread is anti-Ceroc at all, looking at all the replies, most dancers think it would be a great thing, and most 'Commercial Operators' think it would be bad

    I think it would be great for everyone if the UK map was painted orange, as it many cases it would be the only way that some people would get access to Modern Jive. Independents are great, but typically only open classes where there is already a successful Ceroc class, and perceive a market for their own variation. Very few have the vision, training or funds to develop new areas.
    As an example, I have been waiting for 5 years for someone to open an independent class in Inverness, to no avail. Eventually, I had to use my own resources and invest time and money to open it myself. I have no doubt however that in a couple of years time when it is busy an successful, an independent will want to open their own class there...

    As a result, I believe Ceroc domination is the best possible news for dancers and independents. If we don't do our job, or indeed even if we do, but someone disagrees, they will have a ready market to offer their independent concept to.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Registered User Blues Dancer's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    I have no doubt however that in a couple of years time when it is busy an successful, an independent will want to open their own class there...
    Probably someone that you've trained....

    I wonder how many of the people that have been named as independant teachers would be dancing today if it wasn't for Ceroc.....

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana Man
    There's some suggestion on this thread about Ceroc actively targeting competitors for takeover or to put them out of business.
    The statement was that Ceroc, like many other businesses was looking to grow by acquisition aswell as by organic growth. No dark motives were suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana Man
    I've seen all the fantastic dancers you mention (Amir, Viktor, Nina, Nigel, DavidB) at Ceroc run freestyle events in the last year. If it's good enough for you and for them, it's good enough for me.?
    Yup ... I know that many of the Jango lot frequent events run by the like sof Billco, Dan etc. They are good venues and people have a good time. However, not all Ceroc venues are equally good ... but what does the likes of the above going to some Ceroc events and not to others got to do with this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana Man
    I don't see this thread as adding anything other than attempting to stir up anti-Ceroc feelings! What's your real point Gus?
    Well ... i was going to be nice .... but after utter cr*p like this, why should I? Do yourself a favour, and the rest of us poor souls who have to read such drivel, and look what I've actualy said about Ceroc, and avoid making warped allegations.

    Just becasue I dont think that the sun shines out of every orrifice that Ceroc(tm) has, does NOT mean I think its the spawn of satan. I think Ceroc is a great thing for the advancement of MJ .... my main concern is that I don't subscribe to the view that dominance of the market is in the best interests of all dancers ... I fear the 'Microsoft' syndrome.

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Just becasue I dont think that the sun shines out of every orrifice that Ceroc(tm) has, does NOT mean I think its the spawn of satan. I think Ceroc is a great thing for the advancement of MJ .... my main concern is that I don't subscribe to the view that dominance of the market is in the best interests of all dancers ... I fear the 'Microsoft' syndrome.
    __________________




    I concur with everything you say on this...BIGGEST IS NOT ALWAYS BEST!...

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    The statement was that Ceroc, like many other businesses was looking to grow by acquisition aswell as by organic growth. No dark motives were suggested.
    ...
    Do yourself a favour, and the rest of us poor souls who have to read such drivel, and look what I've actualy said about Ceroc, and avoid making warped allegations.
    OK, Let's do that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ...UK dominance...
    ...assimilated...
    ...demised ( ) [your smiley]
    ...'negotiated with'... [your 'ironic' quotes]
    ...a small enclave...

    [Cut to clip of Mike Ellard in a Darth Vader mask:]
    "Katy Baxter - you are part of a rebel alliance and a traitor! Take her away!"
    OK, I made up that last bit - but your language is revealing in its negativity. If you aren't having a 'stir' at Ceroc then I don't know what point you are making.

    As for avoiding drivel, not everyone shares your assessment of which posts on this thread are worth reading.
    Last edited by Lory; 22nd-July-2005 at 11:34 AM. Reason: Request for edit

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blues Dancer
    I wonder how many of the people that have been named as independant teachers would be dancing today if it wasn't for Ceroc.....
    Well, it's pure speculation, of course, but I suspect most of them would be dancing - though perhaps dancing something other than modern jive.

    I like to have lots of variation in music, teaching style, dancing style, and so forth. Insofar as Ceroc "domination" reduces that variety, I am against it.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    I think with a Ceroc night you should get a well organised, well run evening, with a tried and tested forumla that's great for introducing new dancers to MJ. More Ceroc venues means more choice for dancers and I think they have a major contribution to getting new dancers to MJ.

    Re Ceroc buying over other venues/organisations - if the venue is just average, Ceroc may improve things for customers. If it is a high standard already, Ceroc will have to work hard to retain those customers.

    But if Ceroc really were the only people teaching MJ or running MJ events (and I don't see that ever happening) then the incentive to maintain standards to retain customers would not be there. The customer would have no choice and when this happens its the customer who suffers.

    So as I see it, the two advantages in there being both Ceroc and independants operating in the field of MJ

    - more competition will result in consistently good 'products'
    - more scope for variety and diversification of events - ie new styles (easier for an independant to offer a specialised product) and other types of events - eg weekenders. (How many weekenders are there? What is the total number of people going to these? How many of these are Ceroc events? Would there be the same range and choice of weekenders across the UK if Ceroc were the only people running weekenders? And I'm referring to 'total package' weekenders that include accomodation and therefore are aiming at beyond the local area).

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    But if Ceroc really were the only people teaching MJ or running MJ events (and I don't see that ever happening) then the incentive to maintain standards to retain customers would not be there. The customer would have no choice and when this happens its the customer who suffers.
    A nationwide Ceroc presence would be the best thing possible for choice amongst dancers.

    Dancing Ceroc does not disqualify you from dancing LeRoc, LeBop - or any other form of MJ. There's no brand lock in (which is why the situation is ENTIRELY different to Microsoft's monopoly). On any evening you can go to which ever class you prefer, on a whim.

    It's entirely the customers' choice as to whether independent classes survive or perish. There's *no* entry barrier to anyone wanting to set up a dance class and it's not the case that Ceroc can negotiate a better price from its suppliers like a dominant retailer can - it has no bulk suppliers. And competition is at a strictly local venue-to-venue level.

    If your class competes with Ceroc and loses out - it's because your class isn't good enough. Simple as that. If your class is better than the local Ceroc night - then the Ceroc night will lose customers to you.

    More Ceroc venues means more MJ dancers on a national scale which means that there's more opportunity for independent weekenders - not less.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    If your class competes with Ceroc and loses out - it's because your class isn't good enough. Simple as that. If your class is better than the local Ceroc night - then the Ceroc night will lose customers to you.

    More Ceroc venues means more MJ dancers on a national scale which means that there's more opportunity for independent weekenders - not less.
    I didn't say there would be less opportunity for weekenders - not sure if you are disagreeing here - though everything you said is more or less what I just said so I guess not!

    There would be no choice if Ceroc were the only organisation running MJ events, but I don't see that ever happening.

    And can someone dig that poor donkey/mule/ass (delete as appropriate) out of the ground before we have to call an animal welfare agency!
    Last edited by Lynn; 22nd-July-2005 at 10:59 AM.

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    I think Ceroc has an excellent format for a normal class night, the organisation of the classes is very good, and the standard of teaching I've come across is fine, and sometime very inspiring. So I don't have much of a problem with them taking over the UK to teach the basic and intermediate stuff, and their freestyles (at least in my area) are enjoyable.

    The only thing I hope is that they learn something from the people that run the weekenders. I don't know whether Ceroc would think to negotiate a take over of weekenders such as Camber or Southport, but I'd personally be surprised if they had the diversity of teachers to teach all the different styles that you can learn now. They are obviously trying to branch out, as there have been other styles, such as ballroom or blues offered recently by Ceroc, but I'm not convinced that MOST Ceroc teachers would be able to teach MJ, Lindy, Blues, Aerials etc etc, in the way that say Nigel and Nina would be able to, so this bothers me a bit. It would be a shame if teachers that were ex-Ceroc were not allowed to teach if weekenders were run by Ceroc, just because they had decided to go independent. I don't know if this is likely to happen, but actually I hope Ceroc stick to what they do best, which is in my opinion the regular class nights and freestyles.

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    Independents are great, but typically only open classes where there is already a successfull Ceroc class, and perceive a market for their own variation.
    Speaking as an independent operator who started partner dancing before Ceroc started. And as someone who never even went to a Ceroc class 'til he'd been doing modern jive for a year I think I'm an example of how this is not always true. And I'm sure there are plenty of MJ dancers in Bristol who have never even heard of Ceroc.

    I can also say that very few, if any, of the regular dancers at our classes learnt to dance at Ceroc - or any other place but ours. We have a few people coming who learnt MJ with another independent operator - and after some remedial work they can even join in with our intermediate lessons


    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    Very few have the vision, training or funds to develop new areas.
    There may be the dancing equivalent of greenfield sites in Scotland but down here in the South East most towns have one or more MJ class - and those that don't have one within an easy drive. So what we do down here is compete on quality. People have a choice of classes. They base their choice on many factors and those factors might even change as they mature as dancers. For every class to be a Ceroc class would result in dancers having no choice, people would be given what Ceroc thinks they need/want - for some reason I find myself thinking of red rather than orange;

    Then raise the scarlet standard high,
    Within its shade we'll live and die,
    Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
    We'll keep the red flag flying here.


    Although it will need a bit of a rewrite as the two syllables and a diphthong of 'orange' don't work in place of 'red'.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    For every class to be a Ceroc class would result in dancers having no choice, people would be given what Ceroc thinks they need/want - for some reason I find myself thinking of red rather than orange
    You talk as though Ceroc can prevent independent classes from opening, or force them to close. Short of subsidising individual franchisees to run at a loss in order to close competing venues (are you suggesting that Ceroc do that?) what mechanism does Ceroc have to maintain a monopoly, apart from maintaining higher standards than those of which independents are capable?

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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    If your class competes with Ceroc and loses out - it's because your class isn't good enough. Simple as that. If your class is better than the local Ceroc night - then the Ceroc night will lose customers to you.
    This doesn't follow, of course.

    It may be true, all other things being equal... but if one organisation's marketing is more effective than another's then the one that wins out doesn't have to be better at all, it just has to be better known for long enough for the opposition to fold.

    There's not much marketing of non-Ceroc events here any more, is there? I'll be interested to see what happens when the existing "commercial operators" paid year expires.

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    There may be the dancing equivalent of greenfield sites in Scotland but down here in the South East most towns have one or more MJ class - and those that don't have one within an easy drive. So what we do down here is compete on quality. People have a choice of classes.
    I think that was my point. London and the South already have a bright orange presence in most towns / areas, and the sheer numbers of independents (yourself included) shows that Ceroc has not stifled competition. It seems indeed to have inspired it. There are however many 'greenfield' areas left in the UK and apart from Ceroc, nobody has the drive / resources or vision to develop them. Launching a new MJ class in a new territory takes a lot of financial, and time investment, few people are willing to take the risk. Once a market is established however, as Lynn and ESG pointed out, there are very few barriers to entry and anyone can open up a class and from then on, compete on quality / or variety of offerings.
    As Lou pointed out, Leroc is not an organisation, and each Leroc teacher is only interested in their own local class / competition, so as a result, there is no drive to paint the map (insert leroc colour here).
    Quote Originally Posted by Swinging bee
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Just becasue I dont think that the sun shines out of every orrifice that Ceroc(tm) has, does NOT mean I think its the spawn of satan. I think Ceroc is a great thing for the advancement of MJ .... my main concern is that I don't subscribe to the view that dominance of the market is in the best interests of all dancers ... I fear the 'Microsoft' syndrome.
    I concur with everything you say on this...BIGGEST IS NOT ALWAYS BEST!...
    Well, ESG already answered the Microsoft comment, Ceroc don't force you to commit to only dancing its own brand and there is no financial fallout for switching to another class.
    To answer Swinging Bee, biggest is not always best, but neither is smaller. There are some inspired teachers out there who run independent classes, but there are many who don't have either inspiration, training or skill.
    A large organisation like Ceroc can allow franchisees and individual teachers to develop new concepts, and trial them first before offering them to the network. This has resulted in many innovations in the last few years. Moves get shared (and often improved), the format of classes was changed and improved based on solid feedback, new ideas and marketing can be coordinated, etc...
    The converse is that an independent teacher (and let's assume that he/she is one of the rare excellent ones) will launch a class offering a great product in his area, if they are a good business person, they will be successful in their area, but nothing beyond that. All the innovation will be lost and unavailable to the rest of the dancers who don't know about it or are too far to attend. So great news for the few dozens who used to go to Hipsters and now go to Jango etc... but a pity for the rest of us. Thankfully, Ceroc are able to take on good ideas (from independents as well as their own teachers) and are able to spread them across all classes.
    I realise that not all classes are moving at the same speed, but slow speed is still better than no progress at all!
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    You talk as though Ceroc can prevent independent classes from opening, or force them to close. Short of subsidising individual franchisees to run at a loss in order to close competing venues (are you suggesting that Ceroc do that?) what mechanism does Ceroc have to maintain a monopoly, apart from maintaining higher standards than those of which independents are capable?
    There have been a number of weel discussed incidenst where rival opertors have fought turf wars (quite literally if legend is to be believed). Nasty tricks have been used on both sides. HOWEVER, all this has been discussed before, BESG, ie Before ESG) and I dont think there would be any use served in examining those entrails again. Just take it as read .. more goes on in MJ than you are ever liekly to see one the surface, especialy if you are a Ceroc evangalist If you want a REAL view, speak to Will. Will is about as pro-Ceroc as you can get, yet he does so being in possesion of the real facts of what has and is going on .... hence the fact I respect his position though I may not agree with it.

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