Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination?

[El Salsero Gringo]

I wonder if the recent takeover with Rebel Roc meets the OFT's criteria for an examination by the Competition Commission ?

Does the UK supply of Modern Jive lessons form a market in which recent events have significantly lessened the available competition?

[Lynn]

Firstly, my company colours, to date, have been blue and orange. But after reading this thread they will change to blue and yellow in September. Orange is soooo 1976 ...

A little aside on the colours thing...BBC NI can't use orange/green/red/white/blue etc in their colour schemes - even when putting maps on screen in news reports. People phone in and complain if they do ( )- so maps are shown in yellow and a sort of burgandy/wine colour!

[David Bailey]

So what if Ceroc got UK domination, at least

You know what you would be getting where ever you wnet dancing
You know who to compain to if you didn't like something
You know the quality of the venue would be acceptable, and if not, again you know where to complain
You know the national door fee

On the competition front, I think that (at least for my location in North London), there's plenty of, ahem, quite intense competition between Ceroc franchisees already - anyone who thinks that neighbouring Ceroc franchises coordinate their events together is nuts.

I appreciate not everyone can say the same in their areas - but the solution's obvious, just move to London

I'm almost tempted to make a case for "Independents: a very bad thing?"...

[MartinHarper]

Does the UK supply of Modern Jive lessons form a market in which recent events have significantly lessened the available competition?

I expect that the competition commision would view the market as "dance tuition" rather than "modern jive tuition". There's still plenty of competition between Ceroc and people who teach other dances.

[Paul F]

Not sure i f I would go along with the comparison of Ceroc and the leading supermarkets or other manopolistic business. (yes, i did make that word up)

Ceroc is franchised. This is already bringing with it a difference between areas. Some franchisees go for theme nights, some competitions etc.

We would have a core directive to do with pricing and other things like that but when it comes to the way in which Ceroc is presented in that area it is down to the Franschisees. Everyone has their own idea on whats good and bad.

Im not saying that this is a good thing or not, only that it promotes differences and diversity.

[Gus]

Although Nigel, Viktor et al are great teachers there are plenty of others in Ceroc who are just as good with their own unique styles.

Sorry .. can't let this one go. Come on, NAME 5 Ceroc instructors in the same class! (Must admit that I can only think of 2, maybe 3 at a push ... personal view of course and I admit that I'm not as up to date as used to be.)

[Paul F]

Sorry .. can't let this one go. Come on, NAME 5 Ceroc instructors in the same class! (Must admit that I can only think of 2, maybe 3 at a push ... personal view of course and I admit that I'm not as up to date as used to be.)

Define 'the same class'. Is it just because the names listed here have won things?

I do agree though that I may have been pushing myself with the word 'plenty'.

[Cruella]

Sorry .. can't let this one go. Come on, NAME 5 Ceroc instructors in the same class! (Must admit that I can only think of 2, maybe 3 at a push ... personal view of course and I admit that I'm not as up to date as used to be.)

I'd put Roy Agasaba Power (can never get his name right), Emma Pettit and H up there. But as you say it's all down to personal choice. There may be some people who don't like Nigel or Victors teaching. It depends what you look for in a teacher. I personally want someone that will make the class fun at the same time as teaching you moves. So a big personality is key in a teacher in my eyes.

[Andy McGregor]

Sorry .. can't let this one go. Come on, NAME 5 Ceroc instructors in the same class! (Must admit that I can only think of 2, maybe 3 at a push ... personal view of course and I admit that I'm not as up to date as used to be.)

IMHO the best dancers did not become the best because of Ceroc teaching. They are the best because they are properly trained dancers or musicians. I didn't add Nina to the list but I challenge Paul F to name one current CTA trained Ceroc teacher who comes close in terms of dancing skill - or one Ceroc teacher who teaches as well as Nigel Anderson.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with what Ceroc do: what they do they do well and do consistently. But the Ceroc organisation seems to be about conformity and consistency of product - this is not an environment where innovation, excellence and brilliance will flourish. Here's another question, if the whole map were orange would be have blues dancing?

And, the final reason I will put forward, slightly tongue in cheek, for the map not turning orange is that there aren't enough pretty dancers who want to teach. Therefore the rate limiting factor to the move to orange must be the CTA requirement to be pretty - unless the CTA course includes a quick bit of plastic surgery.

[Andy McGregor]

And, Gus has got it wrong. Ceroc do not want "UK Domination". They want to take over the world. They're already in New Zealand, Australia and Singapore and I keep hearing snippets about the USA and Germany - if we were really clever we'd register the trademark Ceroc in a few strategic countries and then sell the name to Ceroc when their orange tanks roll over the borders

[El Salsero Gringo]

... but I challenge Paul F to name one current CTA trained Ceroc teacher who comes close in terms of dancing skill - or one Ceroc teacher who teaches as well as Nigel Anderson.

The lessons of Nigel's that I've been to (only two or three, but enough to form an intial opinion) didn't fire me up at all. So my experience is that there are lots of CTA teachers who teach as well as he does.

And (slightly tongue-in-cheek) there are quite a few CTA teachers who are really rather ugly - again in my opinion.

[Paul F]

I didn't add Nina to the list but I challenge Paul F to name one current CTA trained Ceroc teacher who comes close in terms of dancing skill - or one Ceroc teacher who teaches as well as Nigel Anderson.

Who is going to judge this? If I say person X teaches as well as Nigel Anderson, who is to say I am right or wrong?

Nigel is a great teacher but I have have been to Ceroc classes taught by people with the same ability to teach - absolutely definately. But, as I say, thats my opinion.

You mentioned dancing skill. On what basis are you highlighting one particular person? What did they do to warrant such lavish praise? Is it because they won things? Are you saying that because they have great skill they are a great teacher?

I apologise for being so abrupt but people single out such teachers as being iconic figures. I think they are brilliant teachers, i really do. I also think though that teachers exist, and will continually emerge, who are just as good at teaching as those mentioned here.

The point that was raised was if MJ would suffer by losing such teachers. I say no. There are many teachers (including Ceroc affiliates as well) who can continue to provide first class teaching if 2 or 3 people are lost.

[Lynn]

I don't think its good for any one product or company to completely dominate a market to the extent that no competition can survive. (I think this is different for small specialist products/providers).

If there is no competition - there is no customer choice. If there is no customer choice there is no incentive for the business to aim for customer loyalty. The business ends up with its focus on attracting new customers... which can eventually be unhealthy not only for that business, but also for the whole product.

If someone goes to any 'big' dance provider but fancy a change of scene, maybe hit a plateau in their dancing they want to try a different venue/teaching style/group of dancers - if there is an alternative venue - they go along to that. But they still have friends in their old venue, so they aren't lost as customers completely. If there is no alternative then they go to salsa or another dance style instead and get into that and are lost as customers completely.

So having real alternatives will mean that to achieve customer loyalty the product gets better and better.

It would be interesting to know how long a venue will retain customers who only attend that venue, never go to other freestyles, weekenders, parties etc - what is the average length of time that such dancers are retained?

[Gus]

Nigel is a great teacher but I have have been to Ceroc classes taught by people with the same ability to teach - absolutely definitely. But, as I say, thats my opinion.

Lets put it this way. I could grab a bunch of friends (all pretty experienced dancers, some dance champions between them). Out of the 10 of us if I said that we were going to have a workshop with ,say, Amir, Viktor, Nina, Nigel, DavidB ... I reckon 10 out of 10 would go for it. On the other hand, you could put together whatever group of CTA instructors and I would guarantee that some of that group could question what they have to learn from those instructors.

CTA's great strength is producing people who can teach to a formula. The vast majority of CTA teachers are not dance teachers, they do not have a deep understanding of dance technique. Horses for courses. Ceroc is superb at teaching the majority but I would submit that Ceroc does not cater for the top of the tree, lets lead that to the 'A list' instructors!

YES!!! Managed to drag that old thread up again!!! BUARRRGHHHHHHH ... let the old battle recommence ... where is Gordon P now??

[El Salsero Gringo]

Lets put it this way. I could grab a bunch of friends (all pretty experienced dancers, some dance champions between them). Out of the 10 of us if I said that we were going to have a workshop with ,say, Amir, Viktor, Nina, Nigel, DavidB ...
CTA's great strength is producing people who can teach to a formula. The vast majority of CTA teachers are not dance teachers...

So define dance teacher. The majority of your list of named experts started dancing in adulthood, haven't done DFES-approved teacher training courses and don't teach dance as their main source of income.

Your distinction between who "is a teacher" and "has a deep understanding of dance technique" versus those who "just teach the majority" is just as subjective as anything else.

[MartinHarper]

Who is going to judge this? If I say person X teaches as well as Nigel Anderson, who is to say I am right or wrong?

Moving away from the whole "judgement" and "I'm right, you're wrong" thing... which Ceroc teachers do you think teach as well as, or better than, "Nigel, Viktor, et al"? I promise not to judge your answer - I'm simply interested in your opinion.

[Gadget]

Teach what? Some are better at others in different areas.

[Rhythm King]

Moving away from the whole "judgement" and "I'm right, you're wrong" thing... which Ceroc teachers do you think teach as well as, or better than, "Nigel, Viktor, et al"? I promise not to judge your answer - I'm simply interested in your opinion.

Well, for what my opinion is worth, in no particular order, and without having thought about it much:

Michaela Walker, Emma Pettit, Bill Cooper, Simon Rich, Franck Pauly and Lisa Stott.

Any other offers?

[Petal]

So maybe Ceroc will become Easy Jive?

Hey Peaches, someone stealing your thunder, almost. Deja vu?

[Robin]

Moving away from the whole "judgement" and "I'm right, you're wrong" thing... which Ceroc teachers do you think teach as well as, or better than, "Nigel, Viktor, et al"? I promise not to judge your answer - I'm simply interested in your opinion.

Ermmm ... just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons so to speak, Viktor was a ceroc teacher ... and in case you didn't know it so was Nigel!