What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

[Andreas]

So I conclude that a large part of getting into what I'll call the "drop position" (after which it's the guy mostly doing the lowering and raising, even if the girl is taking some of her own weight), is very much leadable.

Totally agree. To be honest, at this very moment I could not think of any drop that is NOT leadable. There may be a big gap in my knowledge of drops (probably is) but I think that people who need to signal a drop need to do some more homework. There are a few that I know that are difficult to lead but leadable nonetheless. This is obviously very different for air steps.

[LilyB]

I can't make head nor tail of this part of the thread without knowing what you mean by that. So, please: what do you understand to be the true sense of the word 'leadable'?

Edited: ok, I found your definition ... panic over. I can't see a distinction between a first move jump and, say, a step-across. If the follower knows a little of both moves then they can be lead. If he or she doesn't then they're both likely not to work right.

Actually when I refer to 'leadable', I am in fact referring to moves that can be lead by the man and followed by the woman. In non-technical speak, I would expect that if a move is led well, the woman will be able to execute it because she will feel that that is what her partner wants her to do. It should not feel like she is being forced to do it whether she wants to or not, by the sheer superior strength of her partner! A good example is the previously-described First Move Jump where the man gives no prior warning but simply lifts the woman up off the floor. [Of course the woman can foil that with a well-aimed kick in the b***s whilst being thus lifted, but I believe most of us ladies are too well-mannered for such spoiler tactics ] So the man can be described as "leading" the move because he causes the woman to be lifted off the floor, but I cannot see how the woman can be said to have "followed" his lead - she had no choice!

For those who still insist that "following" a lead merely involves executing the move intended by the man/leader, and that knowledge and choice has nothing to do with it, then the concept of being a 'good follower' becomes meaningless. If "following" means just doing what the man is forcing you to do, that requires no ability whatsoever. Does that mean all the years I spent learning and practising the techniques of lead-&-follow were pointless? I don't think so .

Following (no pun intended ) on from my definition of 'leadable' then, I cannot think of any aerials that can be led-and-followed without signals, verbals or pre-arranged entry. That aside, I cannot imagine why any man would want to force an aerial move on an unsuspecting woman - it is b****y hard work! I know that if David tried to do an aerial move with me and I failed to follow properly, I would feel (and look) like a sack of potatoes!

LilyB

[Andreas]

... I would expect that if a move is led well, the woman will be able to execute it because she will feel that that is what her partner wants her to do ...

agreed

It should not feel like she is being forced to do it whether she wants to or not, by the sheer superior strength of her partner! A good example is the previously-described First Move Jump where the man gives no prior warning but simply lifts the woman up off the floor. [Of course the woman can foil that with a well-aimed kick in the b***s whilst being thus lifted, but I believe most of us ladies are too well-mannered for such spoiler tactics ] So the man can be described as "leading" the move because he causes the woman to be lifted off the floor, but I cannot see how the woman can be said to have "followed" his lead - she had no choice!

She actually has a choice in as much as she can lose tension and even hook a leg to prevent being lifted But I agree with you, she is being made to do the move by brute force, which is not really the idea.

For those who still insist that "following" a lead merely involves executing the move intended by the man/leader, and that knowledge and choice has nothing to do with it, then the concept of being a 'good follower' becomes meaningless. If "following" means just doing what the man is forcing you to do, that requires no ability whatsoever. Does that mean all the years I spent learning and practising the techniques of lead-&-follow were pointless? I don't think so .

I don't think this is as easy as you put it. I am relatively sure I can totally deprive you of choice yet not physically force you to do a move. Leading the follower can easily result in that sort of situation, except you'd not see it that way because you feel doing what I want you to is the natural choice. So separating a good lead from removing a choice does only work sometimes.

A good lead can also make a bad follower do a move, in the worst case scenario through deprivation of choice. A good follower can often 'double-guess' a bad lead and do the move because they feel that this is what is wanted, despite the fact that the lead did not actually substaniate it. So practicing to become a good follower is by no means in vain. And while it is incredibly highly appreciated by all leads, it is not a necessity.

Following (no pun intended ) on from my definition of 'leadable' then, I cannot think of any aerials that can be led-and-followed without signals, verbals or pre-arranged entry. That aside, I cannot imagine why any man would want to force an aerial move on an unsuspecting woman - it is b****y hard work! I know that if David tried to do an aerial move with me and I failed to follow properly, I would feel (and look) like a sack of potatoes!

LilyB

Couldn't agree more with anything but that. It is possible to throw somebody onto one's shoulder but ...

[David Franklin]

I don't think this is as easy as you put it. I am relatively sure I can totally deprive you of choice yet not physically force you to do a move. Leading the follower can easily result in that sort of situation, except you'd not see it that way because you feel doing what I want you to is the natural choice.

I disagree. You can make it feel like there is only one reasonable choice, but that's not the same as totally depriving someone of choice. A key point is that everyone's definition of "reasonable" will be different. A really good follower will find "well, the only reasonable thing to do was X, because he was pulling me forwards with two ounces of tension and then moved his hand fractionally to the side". A really bad follower will say "well, he had me in a hammerlock and and I thought it was reasonable to go the other way until he dislocated my shoulder". It's just a question whether you're dancing or playing judo...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Actually when I refer to 'leadable', I am in fact referring to moves that can be lead by the man and followed by the woman. In non-technical speak, I would expect that if a move is led well, the woman will be able to execute it because she will feel that that is what her partner wants her to do. It should not feel like she is being forced to do it whether she wants to or not, by the sheer superior strength of her partner! A good example is the previously-described First Move Jump where the man gives no prior warning but simply lifts the woman up off the floor.

{snip of lots of stuff}

Following (no pun intended ) on from my definition of 'leadable' then, I cannot think of any aerials that can be led-and-followed without signals, verbals or pre-arranged entry.

Lead for the First Move Jump: bring the lady in to the side, crouch a little and make a small lift. Perhaps I'm not describing that very well, but you get the idea. What I mean is *NOT* pick her up and throw her bodily across the room. If she recognises the lead and deweights or makes her jump - or however you describe what the lady does next, you can carry on - turn her 180 degrees and translate her backwards. If she doesnt recognise the move (and at that point it's going to be bleedin' obvious whether she does or not) then abort and do something else. Just like you would if you tried to lead a first move with someone who didn't know it and it all went disastrously wrong.

So there - an aerial - lead, and followed (hopefully) without a signal, without a verbal and without prewarning. OF COURSE you both have to know and recognise the lead, but that goes for every MJ move.