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Thread: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    I wish there was some way of developing the 'Dance With A Stranger' idea as this really does show the leading/following ability of the couple. Alas, I guess its unfair to potentially pair up a seasoned dancer with a beginner ....or is it?


    Its this ability to 'grab' someone and dance with them that makes Ceroc so enjoyable to a lot of people. This should be reflected in the competitions. If we want to see choreographed sequences we can watch those categories.
    There is potential for DWAS to be developed to a higher level in the UK.

    DWAS in Australia is done in levels - there is a category for Beginners, Intermediate & Advanced. in the last couple of years they have gone a step further and rather than partnering people with one person for the heats, semis & finals - now they rotate partners through out each stage - execpt for finals - but partners aren't assigned until dancers on the floor so no time to practise Males & Females are judged seperately not as a couple

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    There is potential for DWAS to be developed to a higher level in the UK.

    DWAS in Australia is done in levels - there is a category for Beginners, Intermediate & Advanced. in the last couple of years they have gone a step further and rather than partnering people with one person for the heats, semis & finals - now they rotate partners through out each stage - execpt for finals - but partners aren't assigned until dancers on the floor so no time to practise Males & Females are judged seperately not as a couple
    The idea of swapping partners for DWAS is spot on. Real dancing for me is the ability to dance with a wide range of partners and to a variety of good music. This is what dancing is about who wants to learn routines? I am a bit worried about catergorising though who would make the decison to a dancers level.
    I think one competition where everybody is mixed is best let the best shine through ?

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Cool
    The idea of swapping partners for DWAS is spot on. Real dancing for me is the ability to dance with a wide range of partners and to a variety of good music. This is what dancing is about who wants to learn routines? I am a bit worried about catergorising though who would make the decison to a dancers level.
    the levels for DWAS are the same as for the freestyle levels
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Cool
    I think one competition where everybody is mixed is best let the best shine through ?
    is hard for an advanced follow to do her best with a beginner lead

    by splitting into levels - you can also vary the judging requirements - my understanding is that at beginner level the main thing being judged are dancing on the beat at intermediate & advanced level musicality, style etc are more important

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    is hard for an advanced follow to do her best with a beginner lead
    You could just as much turn that around: How good an advanced dancer REALLY is shows in HER/HIS ability to dance to the level of their respective partner. This is much more of an art and challenge than doing difficult moves with a person who knows perfectly what he/she is doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    by splitting into levels - you can also vary the judging requirements - my understanding is that at beginner level the main thing being judged are dancing on the beat at intermediate & advanced level musicality, style etc are more important
    That is exactly what it comes down to: judging criteria! Currently it is all about technical difficulty showing in moves, almost all anyway.

    Essentially you'd have to do two DWAS, one mixed levels, one separated levels.

    Though it is not as exciting to watch and/or (for the advanced person) participate in the mixed levels category. In my opinion this is the only category that actually represents the spirit of Ceroc/MJ correctly and also shows the ability to freestyle best. It obviously is also more of a gamble. But that again comes down to what you want to get out of the comp.


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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    You could just as much turn that around: How good an advanced dancer REALLY is shows in HER/HIS ability to dance to the level of their respective partner. This is much more of an art and challenge than doing difficult moves with a person who knows perfectly what he/she is doing.
    dancing to the level of your partner is a skill
    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    That is exactly what it comes down to: judging criteria! Currently it is all about technical difficulty showing in moves, almost all anyway.
    having never seen a mixed level DWAS comp - I'm guessing that most of those that make it to finals and placing are higher level leaders then
    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    Essentially you'd have to do two DWAS, one mixed levels, one separated levels.
    what would having both achieve?
    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    Though it is not as exciting to watch and/or (for the advanced person) participate in the mixed levels category. In my opinion this is the only category that actually represents the spirit of Ceroc/MJ correctly and also shows the ability to freestyle best. It obviously is also more of a gamble. But that again comes down to what you want to get out of the comp.
    I think it is safe to say that what most people want from a competition is the chance to dance the best they can.

    given that level DWAS pairs leaders & follows of the same level this gives both that opportunity - plus it allows the judges to compare apples with apples rather than apples with oranges

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Cool
    Real dancing for me is the ability to dance with a wide range of partners and to a variety of good music.
    Would it also be valid to suggest for many of the better dancers is that 'real' dancing is about improving their style, moves and enjoyment with a more limited group of partners? Look at the best dancers. They may well dance with all and sundry but they will have their 'favourite' dancers with whom they shine and come alive. THAT is what I love to see, what inspires me and something I wish to emulate.

    Would people prefer to pay to see one mass DWAS, or see the best dance with people they think they can perform better?

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Would people prefer to pay to see one mass DWAS, or see the best dance with people they think they can perform better?
    shouldn't the real question be

    what would people rather compete in?

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by jockey
    The last time I did Blackpool (2004) the advanced dancers were to be seen in the intermediate section pothunting - 5 advanced couples filled 5 of the six final places in the intermediate final; we made the semis and with insider help worked out we were about 9th or 10th.
    Which couple of the 6 were not advanced then, and how exactly are you judging this? All finalists were eligible for the catagory or they would have been disqualified! Certainly, James and Melanie are an intermediate dance partnership - James may well have been dancing jive the shortest time out of all the finalists. That just goes to show how good he is, but did that mean he should have entered advanced ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jockey
    Therefore if they had stayed where they belonged Amaia and I would have made the final.
    This suggests all 5 of them previously entered the advanced section. I'd be suitable outraged too if this is true - can anyone confirm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    if they are just dancing a prepared routine then they should be in the Showcase section.
    I give the judges the benefit of the doubt here, Im sure they can tell the difference between a routine and freestyle dancing. A routine is not likely to fit all types of music, and you never know what music you will get. Anyway Ive seen a few showcases where it looked as thought the couple were freestyling so I say do what you like, the judges should spot it.

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    having never seen a mixed level DWAS comp - I'm guessing that most of those that make it to finals and placing are higher level leaders then
    Goes to show that my argument with focus on difficulty of moves was well substantiated ... as far as OZ goes anyway. Quite surprisingly (for you) the answer is NO. It was always relatively even with a slight advantage to the higher level girls.

    This also makes perfect sense:
    - A good lead can only do so much with a beginner follower. In most cases body tension etc. is just not or only rudimentary developed. So the majority of all drops will be like holding a sack of potatoes (no offense, but we all know not to do drops with beginners for good reasons). Very complex moves can only be done if the emphasis is on the leader because the follower is certainly not quick and precise enough to do the moves.
    - A good follower can easily spot holes in the flow of the lead and make use of those through style elements etc.. Should the lead know a dip/drop or two then the follower can actually (although I hate saying this) place herself into the move and make it look great.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    what would having both achieve?

    I think it is safe to say that what most people want from a competition is the chance to dance the best they can.
    It'd show who is capable of not only dancing with people of their level but also make a great dance of what is available when the partner is not up there. Or the other way around, it shows if people who are great social dancers can also mix and mingle in a category when they have to pull some tricks to impress. If you run the mixed level category in the same format as it is being applied in OZ to DWAS then you'd even eliminate a large chunk of the 'luck' factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    given that level DWAS pairs leaders & follows of the same level this gives both that opportunity - plus it allows the judges to compare apples with apples rather than apples with oranges
    I agree as far as current rules go. But who says that the current judging criteria are great? They work because people have been told 'this is what counts'. You give people different objectives and suddenly your oranges become apples ... this did work with water and wine.

    DWAS is a category distinct to the others. You can't expect to win because you have just won the Adv. 'freestyle'. You are submitted to a portion of luck in regards to your partner. A regular change of partners sort of reduces this but still, you will not be able to scratch your full potential. But that is also not the aim of such an event.

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Saturday week ago Twyford had a DWAS comp, which was very entertaining, mainly because most of the entrants had 'opposite' partners (experience + beginner) It was interesting to see how they coped, however the couple who won (and they were very good) were both experienced dancers and had danced with each other before - luck of the draw In fact all the placed couples were experenced dancers, not a beginner in sight, even though there were some really top class dancers coupled with beginners

    At the end of the day (a saying taken from Big Brother ) the judges were looking for the best dancing couple, not necessarily "how you can get the best out of mixed levels"
    Last edited by Minnie M; 17th-July-2005 at 06:06 PM.


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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Cool
    I think competitions should encourage freestyle in competition by scoring style and musicality higher.
    I for one am not impressed by routines that are based almost completely on lifts and airsteps, a trend i think we have picked up from OZ.
    Typically the man moves from one big move to another often ignoring the music leaving the lady to do all the musicality. The big moves wow the crowd but is it dancing? Personally i want to see the man dance with style and finesse not just as the foil for his partner

    I am pleased to see that there are a number of people that want to see freestyle encouraged and that they think that routines have no place in Freestyle Competition.

    Roger C

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I believe that it is possible for an advanced dancer who knows a particular track to be able to choreograph it on the fly, including long sequences of moves. This is outside of my personal zone, and I am extrapolating such extraordinary abilities from my experiences in other fields.

    I also believe that there are quite a number that know a track and can remember sequences of moves that fit in perfectly. I do not see this as "cheating", or to be discounted, but rather as an extrapolation of the ability to remember one move that fits. We all learned language starting with one word at a time, and moving through phrases to sentences. I think the language of dance is the same.

    There is usually a difference between exhibition dance and partner dance. The only real way to assess partner dancing is for the partners to do the judging. Otherwise we we have to assess what we see, and the feelings that that arouses, rather than experience first-hand the "connection". It is usually beyond our ability to see the nuances, so we have to settle for competitors "dancing big".

    Wow! I didn't realise that advance dancers were so good!

    To be able to choreograph on the fly long sequences of moves into the near future and to be able to dance in the present. Where are these supermen? You clearly have lost the plot. It is far easier to pre-prepare a routine in advance and to polish it, rather than to stress about interpreting the actual music they are hearing.

    Roger C

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger C
    To be able to choreograph on the fly long sequences of moves into the near future and to be able to dance in the present. Where are these supermen? You clearly have lost the plot. It is far easier to pre-prepare a routine in advance and to polish it, rather than to stress about interpreting the actual music they are hearing.
    I know quite a lot of competitors, and I have to say I've never noticed any of them use long pre-planned sequences. A lot of couples do use "set pieces" - 2 or 3 flash moves linked together. No, it's not strictly freestyle, and worse, it's very noticable if repeated. But it's a long way from the your implication of a complete choreographed routine.

    As for easier to pre-prepare a routine and polish it - well, I guess it depends what you mean by "polish". We are some way from the top cabaret couples, and although we spend some time getting the moves "slick", most of the time we spend "polishing" is very specific work on lines, shapes etc., or extending/truncating a move to work with the music. That work is very specific to the track we are using and would be completely pointless for a freestyle competition. All this is even more true for the top couples.

    I must also say we find choreographing a complete routine a lot of work compared with freestyle; on at least one routine we had insufficient time to finish choreography and so had sections that were "OK, I'll put you down from lift #1 on this beat, and then we'll freestyle, and then at this count I'll put you into a walky move so we can prepare and then on this beat we'll do the next lift". The performance seemed to go down well. Very few people realised we were freestyling.

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    A while ago I was at a national MJ competition and I saw a couple that I knew very well dancing in the advanced competion. They had taken three moves from Graham LeClerc and Sarah Johnson "simply irrestiable" showcase routine and danced those three moves in the same order for the whole track. They continued to do exactly the same thing for all the subsequent tracks that they enountered up to and including the final. They didn't get placed in the final because when there are only 5 couples left on the floor the judges can see what is happening while in the earlier packed heats the judges have only about 6 seconds per couple to make an assesment.

    They may have danced these three moves with superb accomplishment but there was no lead and follow because they both knew what moves were coming next and there was no musicality because the moves were not crafted to fit the peice of music being played at the time. Still it was good enough to get them to the final. I cannot see how it would fit into a definition of freestyle though.

    At another competition I watched extrememly good couples progress though to the final. On the way to the final the couples ended up having to dance to 5 tracks. One was classic thump thump pop, one was slow and latiny, one was lindy/swing style, one bluesy in feel and speed, and one show tune.

    One couple danced superbly utilising about 15 moves from their dance videos but the only thing that seemed to change in their dancing from track to track was the speed at which these same moves was executed. If a break or an accent point in the music occured part way through they didn't let it interupt the flow of the move. In short, to my eye, it seemed like an execution of moves where the music was only there to provide a cadence. They won.

    Another couple also danced superbly but they changed their selection of moves to fit in with the style of each track they were given. Their hands, feet, heads arms and legs were all used to illustrate that they were dancing TO the music. They used stops, hesitations and accent points. Not a single nuance of the music was left unexplored. They did not win.

    We all have our own individual ideas about what dancing is. Competition freestyle dancing is not my idea of dancing. When the music and dance become uncoupled from each other then it falls way outside of my idea of dance. Competition dancing appears to me to be a series of pre prepared dance sequences and flash moves pretending to be "freestyle".

    I still like watching showcase routines though. At least they are not pretending to be freestyle.

    I do still harbour hopes that dancing TO music will come back into fashion one day. In the meantime it is what I am aiming for in my dancing.

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger C
    ...To be able to choreograph on the fly long sequences of moves into the near future and to be able to dance in the present. Where are these supermen? You clearly have lost the plot...
    I do not know of any dancers that can choreograph a track on the fly. I do know of human beings who have "superhuman" gifts at the same level, and believe that it is within the range of human ability. I have a few flashes of similar feats myself when much younger, and it is scary. These are not tricks of the concious mind, you cannot hear yourself thinking "I will do this, then I will ..." It just flows.
    Music is repetitious, and patterned, so is dance. Prediciting and matching up the patterns is not that difficult a task.
    I have seen enough of your dancing to believe that, for you, sometimes it just flows, just works beautifully. You did not know how you did it, how to explain it to someone else, and were not sure that you could reach that level again. Am I right?

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    ...made them focus on practicing a great variety of moves and musical interpretation. It was clear that I made their life harder than if I had given them set sequences of 3-5 moves to rehearse and combine. However, this is an approach that I deplore as the word sequence alone already implies lack of true freestyling.
    So when does a move become so long that it is as long as a "mini sequence" and hence is no longer freestyle?

    Anyone who has attended Nigel & Nina's competition workshops may recall that they include a section on mini sequences. The main idea is that you have a move that doesn't have a specific lead, so in order to fit that particular wow move in, you have to put it in a sequence. (Unless you want to shout "TRIPLE KAKHANDED INVERTED TEAPOT SLIDE" and then shout it again when your partner says "What?")

    But does doing a sequence mean you're not freestyling?

    Firstly, you would choose the sequence to fit the style of music, if it's a long sequence (say eg it takes 12 bars) you will fit it into the track where the music isn't going to go off in a different direction, or where any accents will fit the moves you are doing. Most importantly, if you've timed it wrong, and the music does do something you hadn't planned for, you break the sequence, and take it into something more suitable for the music. What you never do, is just blindly carry on through the sequence disregarding the music. (Why bother having music if that's what you're going to do?)

    So why would this not be freestyling, as opposed to (for example) breaking down a first move part way through, due to a break, or repeating steps within it due to some repetition in the music?

    Greg

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    As an advanced competitor I suppose I should chip in on this, even though I find everything I've got to say a bit dull :yawn:

    I enter competitions for fun. I would find learning a routine for the competition very boring and believe it would be a complete waste of time too. IMHO advanced dancing is very much about fitting the dance to the music, it's about making the dance you do look like a choreographed routine that fits the music. The job of the DJ is to make sure you don't have a routine that fits the music he/she's chosen.

    I believe anyone dancing a routine in the freestyle competition would not make it to the final - because the dance would fit so badly with the music. Also, I've seen some people dancing routines in the freestyle completition and I recognise the routine. Both of these factors mean that, if I were the judge, I would mark the routine doing couple down.

    Do I do routines when I compete? I don't know any well enough! Of course I have sequences of moves that fit together well but I find that can be a drawback as my partner is sometimes tempted to anticipate them - and then I anticipate their anticipation and can't do the sequence if I'm likely to change any part of it Consider the Astaire which starts like a first move walk, has a dramatic smooth slide going into a c-shaped pose which is held for affect at the end - preferably on a break: sometimes I've timed it wrongly and the c-shaped thing isn't going to hit the break - but often my partner will try to do it even though I haven't led it. So I now have to use a verbal signal for not doing something So, mini-routines have as much for them as against IMHO.

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    For a while, I thought "freestyle" was a complete misnomer. In a freestyle dance competition, you would be able to do any style of dancing you like - MJ, Tango, Line, Outer Hebridean Three Step - whatever.

    However, I am informed by folks cooler than me that there is also such a thing as "freestyle" in rap, where the rapper makes up the lyrics as she goes along. This must be where freestyles in "Modern" Jive come from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepman
    Does doing a sequence mean you're not freestyling?
    It's about as much freestyle dancing as shouting out random verses from Shania Twain songs is freestyle rapping. However, if the rules and judges in a "freestyle" dance competition don't require freestyling, that's the fault of the organisers, not the competitors.

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    However, if the rules and judges in a "freestyle" dance competition don't require freestyling, that's the fault of the organisers, not the competitors.
    Are you saying that it is up to the organisers to police that their "freestyle" policies are being carried out!

    Roger C.

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    Re: What is Freestyle in Dance Competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger C
    Are you saying that it is up to the organisers to police that their "freestyle" policies are being carried out!
    Is that a question?
    Competitors should obey the rules.
    Judges should disqualify competitors who do not obey the rules.
    A true freestyle competition should have rules that require freestyle dancing.

    In a false "freestyle" competition, where the rules do not require or even promote freestyle, I don't see a problem with competitors choosing not to freestyle.

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