What happened?!! (good week, bad week mark II)

[LMC]

Well, since my first good week, bad week thread digressed into a big discussion on the catapault where I talked a lot of total rubbish (what's new? ) I thought I'd start over...

somewhere in between a bit of a wallflower saturday and a good sunday, I learned to wiggle. I know I said that before (several times) but I'm so chuffed that I'm saying it again

somewhere between a good sunday and a FANTASTIC Monday I've lost some inhibitions

9,247 extra women tonight - I got into a bit of a strop about the 'moving on' - if we're moving on, then b****y well MOVE - don't DAWDLE!!! Beginners class took an extra 15 minutes tonight!!! I can count and walk at the same time and I'm blonde. I'm sure I confused things by counting to my next victim, I mean partner, and overtaking, or calculating that I was "out" and just making a beeline for the fan. I also don't keep the same place in the queue when I'm 'out' either, or you end up with the same partners all the time in class and it's good to practice with as many as possible - and that seems to confuse the hell out of people as well

Felt a bit mean about telling someone (who was not a beginner I hasten to add) that I'd done my duty with beginners - well, I had had 3 dances with the same first-timer and promised him another later (he actually got another 3 by the time we'd been through all 4 of the class moves) Bit of a dilemma, but I think it's easier for men to dance with beginner women than women to dance with beginner men - unless you know how to lead or you backlead, it's very hard work. Being still a relative beginner myself, I don't want to be telling them wrong, plus I need to dance with people better than me

Big to the guy who literally managed to sweep me off my feet, sorry I shrieked in surprise (loved it really, thanks )

Intermediate classes are no longer so 'daunting' - I feel like I can keep up with most of the rest of 'em now hooray!

[David Bailey]

somewhere in between a bit of a wallflower saturday and a good sunday, I learned to wiggle.

Ooh, you'l have to teach me, I always wanted to learn, it sounds like fun

I got into a bit of a strop about the 'moving on' - if we're moving on, then b****y well MOVE - don't DAWDLE!!!

Welcome to the world of the queue... If it's any consolation, men are much much worse at counting than women. We tried a "swapping in and out" variation last night, but I dunno if that works well either.

Felt a bit mean about telling someone (who was not a beginner I hasten to add) that I'd done my duty with beginners

That is a little mean. You're clearly Evil.

Bit of a dilemma, but I think it's easier for men to dance with beginner women than women to dance with beginner men - unless you know how to lead or you backlead, it's very hard work.

I used to think so, but now I'm not sure. A good follower should be able to follow anything, even a crap lead, and learning to follow crap leads is an essential skill in today's world.

[ducasi]

I'm sure I confused things by counting to my next victim, I mean partner, and overtaking, or calculating that I was "out" and just making a beeline for the fan.

Please don't do this – us guys you've just missed out can't count you if you escape off in a different direction.

[LMC]

I used to think so, but now I'm not sure. A good follower should be able to follow anything, even a crap lead, and learning to follow crap leads is an essential skill in today's world.

That's working on the assumption that they do something in the first place and don't just stand there looking bewildered while you say

"No, we need NOT to be at arms length or we won't be able to step back - closer in, come on, I have showered tonight........ Right, now draw the semi-circle to the left and step back...... No, not that far or I'll have to take 3 steps in which will look really crap.......... OK, now pull gently with your left hand to bring me in to your right side....... No, your right hand needs to go on my hip, not in the small of my back, or it might get in the way later when you try to turn me....... Now push down with your left...." (contd. p 94)

which means it takes an entire track just to go through the first move!!! - unlike for men, who can lead women through the moves with less verbiage. I'm not saying I have a problem with this - but I'm not a taxi dancer and as I said, I need to improve by dancing with more experienced people as well. (All this was after the review class as well! - bless him, he looked terrified!! Big to the girl who 'took over' from me )

[LMC]

Please don't do this – us guys you've just missed out can't count you if you escape off in a different direction.

Fair comment - I consider myself duly slapped and won't do it again. But I reserve the right to get really really really really frustrated with the dawdling along behind a line of women who seem to be on another planet (waits for smart remark about how we all are)... WALK FASTER!!!!

[ducasi]

(All this was after the review class as well! - bless him, he looked terrified!! Big to the girl who 'took over' from me )

And kudos to him for persevering, despite the scary women he was trying to dance with pushing him around.

[LMC]

And kudos to him for persevering, despite the scary women he was trying to dance with pushing him around.

The whole point was that I was refusing to backlead him

(and I wasn't being scary, promise - all that might look irritable in type, but it was all done with a smile and encouraging nods and "that's it"s, honest!)

[ducasi]

(and I wasn't being scary, promise - all that might look irritable in type, but it was all done with a smile and encouraging nods and "that's it"s, honest!)

Believe me, when you're just a beginner, all the women are scary – as you said, he looked terrified.

[David Bailey]

That's working on the assumption that they do something in the first place and don't just stand there looking bewildered while you say

" { snip highly detailed instructions }

Boy, that's an interesting interpretation of following ....

unlike for men, who can lead women through the moves with less verbiage.

Depends on the move.

We did a (lovely) Tango first move variation last night in the intermediates class, where the lady turns anti-clockwise after the open-out, by pivoting on her right leg and moving her left leg back and around.

Of the 20+ ladies I danced with, I'd say, ohhh, 2 of them actually got that (back-and-around) concept, even though this was a repeat of a routine from 3 weeks ago, and even though the teacher got down from the stage and explicitly demonstrated it. Simply because it involved some footwork.

So, I had to basically push the ladies' legs in the right direction 90% of the time with a new partner, and had to say "back and around, back and around" all the time. Serious amount of verbiage there...

[LMC]

Believe me, when you're just a beginner, all the women are scary – as you said, he looked terrified.

Well, I asked him to dance first (and we had 3, then I went off for a water break and a couple of other dances) - then he came back and asked me again so we had another 3 - so I think I must have been reasonably approachable

So, I had to basically push the ladies' legs in the right direction 90% of the time with a new partner, and had to say "back and around, back and around" all the time. Serious amount of verbiage there...

For a bloke, yeah, that is quite verbose - but the point is that you can lead it as you're talking - rather than (OK, you're right ) "leading by talking" then waiting for the guy to, er, follow by leading. PS I am not kidding about the detail in the instructions in this instance!

[Lou]

Quick Hijack. Sorry!

We did a (lovely) Tango first move variation last night in the intermediates class, where the lady turns anti-clockwise after the open-out, by pivoting on her right leg and moving her left leg back and around.

That sounds gorgeous. I was working on a first move variation with an anti-clockwise turn in freestyle last night. Can I just ask where the lady's turn occurs? - Do you bring her forward to spin - or spin where she is for the open-out?

(btw... our variation had some lovely Manhattans at the end, but it was tricky to try & ensure I was going back on the right foot after the anti-clockwise spin).

[MartinHarper]

What we say to beginners, and what they really hear:

"No, [...] NOT [...] won't [...] No, not [...] crap [...] not

I know that you were exaggerating for effect, but you may have more success if you don't use quite so many negatives whilst dancing with complete beginners. For example:

"No, not that far or I'll have to take 3 steps in which will look really crap"

I'd just take three steps in. There's really no need to fuss the leader's head with whether a move looks crap or not, when he's not capable of leading it yet. Other stuff is self-correcting (starting too far away, having a hand in the wrong place). Often the best form of feedback is to follow what is lead.

[stewart38]

Fair comment - I consider myself duly slapped and won't do it again. But I reserve the right to get really really really really frustrated with the dawdling along behind a line of women who seem to be on another planet (waits for smart remark about how we all are)... WALK FASTER!!!!

Just be patient and help your fellow women

You could tell them where they are
Which way to walk
General bussle along activity

you jumping 10 spaces ahead is light years away from where your fellow 'brothers' are at

Girls talk they dont count

[David Bailey]

That sounds gorgeous. I was working on a first move variation with an anti-clockwise turn in freestyle last night. Can I just ask where the lady's turn occurs? - Do you bring her forward to spin - or spin where she is for the open-out?

Errr, there's no spin, just a return at the end. For more details, you're maybe better off asking ESG, I was merely a humble lad in the trenches for that one...

"leading by talking" then waiting for the guy to, er, follow by leading. PS I am not kidding about the detail in the instructions in this instance!

I think the amount of detail was probably the main problem - as I found out last night, people don't really listen to what you say, you have to basically push them around...!

[JoC]

Quick Hijack. Sorry!
That sounds gorgeous. Can I just ask where the lady's turn occurs? - Do you bring her forward to spin - or spin where she is for the open-out?

It sounds a bit like...

starts as a first move semi-dadada-step back
step side by side
do the turn out (lady's right leg stepping back)
when lady's weight on right leg, man rotates lady anti-clockwise, lady pivots on right leg, bringing left leg round behind right leg, transferring weight
you can then repeat as many times as you like until you work out the end of the move of choice...

is that the one...?


I remember now Franck taught this a while back and it finished with a nudge to the lady's inner knee zone (what else can I call it!?) whereupon the lady could do a fabulous tango style kick - ta-da! Last bit was especially tricky for most people to get the hang of because the positioning of legs was pretty crucial.

Don't get led that very often unless I'm missing the signals

[ducasi]

Well, I asked him to dance first (and we had 3, then I went off for a water break and a couple of other dances) - then he came back and asked me again so we had another 3 - so I think I must have been reasonably approachable

Or knowing that he got through one dance with you intact, figured you weren't going to eat him alive for the next 5 dances.

The whole experience is scary. The poor guy gets my respect.

[CJ]

So, I had to basically push the ladies' legs in the right direction 90% of the time with a new partner, and had to say "back and around, back and around" all the time. Serious amount of verbiage there...

"Back" and "Around" are adjectives, said as an order: not verbs.

[David Bailey]

It sounds a bit like...

starts as a first move semi-dadada-step back
step side by side
do the turn out (lady's right leg stepping back)
when lady's weight on right leg, man rotates lady anti-clockwise, lady pivots on right leg, bringing left leg round behind right leg, transferring weight
you can then repeat as many times as you like until you work out the end of the move of choice...

is that the one...?

Exactly, yet more gold stars earned - except there's no side-by-side (if that means step-back), the lady turn is straight from the open-out bit.

Also, the man needs to step back on his right for the open-out, and needs to also adopt a ballroom hold, to be able to (try to) lead the lady back-and-around. I tell you, trying to lead that part of it certainly sorts the men from the boys (and I'm definitely in the boys camp).

I remember now Franck taught this a while back and it finished with a nudge to the lady's inner knee zone

Exactamundo; however, I didn't even attempt this, I was having enough trouble with it already.

Don't get led that very often unless I'm missing the signals

It's a serious move; needs a seriously good lead. I knew I needed to improve my lead when I tried to do it with the teacher (and failed ) in the freestyle. I love the move, and I want it to have my babies, but it's going to take a while for me to get it to work.

OK, that's a nice bet of thread-hijacking going on...

[Tessalicious]

Boy, that's an interesting interpretation of following ....


Depends on the move.

We did a (lovely) Tango first move variation last night in the intermediates class, where the lady turns anti-clockwise after the open-out, by pivoting on her right leg and moving her left leg back and around.

Of the 20+ ladies I danced with, I'd say, ohhh, 2 of them actually got that (back-and-around) concept, even though this was a repeat of a routine from 3 weeks ago, and even though the teacher got down from the stage and explicitly demonstrated it. Simply because it involved some footwork.

So, I had to basically push the ladies' legs in the right direction 90% of the time with a new partner, and had to say "back and around, back and around" all the time. Serious amount of verbiage there...

Well you seemed to be doing a good job getting them to do it - when they came to me after you they seemed to have understood it even if i wasn't leading it right. And yes, the lead for that is hard - I believe (waiting for that Jango master Will to correct me on this one) that not only is it left hand ballroom hold and right hand much higher up (on the lady's back you dirty minded people) but also a slight lift on the shoulderblade to help her pivot correctly and do an ocho rather than that strange slidey thing that comes automatically.

Then when the lady is stepped back on her left foot the lead brings the right knee round (when I did this it always seemed more like an S shape than a semicircular sweep but oh well, I'll just have to practise)to turn the lady clockwise, then return her as you step round her on the left foot.

Now go do it in freestyle with a few beginner ladies who've never seen it before, and see if you lose the will to live...

[Trish]

That's working on the assumption that they do something in the first place and don't just stand there looking bewildered while you say

"No, we need NOT to be at arms length or we won't be able to step back - closer in, come on, I have showered tonight........ Right, now draw the semi-circle to the left and step back...... No, not that far or I'll have to take 3 steps in which will look really crap.......... OK, now pull gently with your left hand to bring me in to your right side....... No, your right hand needs to go on my hip, not in the small of my back, or it might get in the way later when you try to turn me....... Now push down with your left...." (contd. p 94)

which means it takes an entire track just to go through the first move!!! - unlike for men, who can lead women through the moves with less verbiage. I'm not saying I have a problem with this - but I'm not a taxi dancer and as I said, I need to improve by dancing with more experienced people as well. (All this was after the review class as well! - bless him, he looked terrified!! Big to the girl who 'took over' from me )

Sounds like you'd make a good taxi dancer, when you feel a bit more confident in your own dancing abilities! I know what you mean here that sometimes you do have to explain things (as you said, in real life you probably came across as more incouraging than this!), although perhaps sometimes backleading is also helpful for demonstration purposes. Or if I'm taxiing I'll sometimes show them the move again using a helpful lady.

You've definitely got it in the patience stakes though!