I don't think that the move it's self is important as to what makes it "Cerocentric": I think that it's the "Return and step back" tagged on at the end - this is the basic 'reset' position.
As a mirror to the "What is Ceroc?" thread, I though I'd ask "What is a Ceroc move?" In particular, which moves are unique to Ceroc (and/or Modern Jive)?
Is it possible to determine that someone is dancing Ceroc by checking the moves that they dance? Or, is Ceroc such an ecclectic collection of moves that it is impossible?
For example:
American Spin is in jive / rock'n'roll
Arm Jive is in rock'n'roll
Catapult is also in rock'n'roll / Lindy Hop.
Basket is also in salsa, zydecco jitterbug.
Comb is also in salsa.
Hatchback is in salsa.
Man spin is in jive.
Wurlitzer / Flingy Flung is in hustle.
All aerials are obviously derived from Lindy Hop
etc.
SpinDr.
I don't think that the move it's self is important as to what makes it "Cerocentric": I think that it's the "Return and step back" tagged on at the end - this is the basic 'reset' position.
Er..........in advanced classes we're taught to avoid returns - does that mean it's not Ceroc any more??
Originally Posted by spindr
obviously???????? Why????
Hi MouthoftheSouth and welcome!
Really?Originally Posted by MouthoftheSouth
Well, I dunno, but I'd say a return is just a return - it's sometimes required, sometimes not, depends what move combination you're using. I did a class (intermediate) last night, and it had 2 returns, one right-handed and one left-handed, and I don't think the routine suffered from it.
Do your teachers actually say "don't do returns" then? Seems strange... I suppose you could say that it's used in beginner's classes to give a bit of a "pause", which is not always needed when you get more experienced. Something like that?
I'd be interested to find out why they believe a return should be avoided, and what, if anything, goes in its place.Originally Posted by DavidJames
Our Bristolian LeRoc footwork rules (of which I'm still strangely fond ), actually benefit from the use of returns, in order to unwind the lady & get her back on the correct foot for the next move.
I find returns in Ceroc™ tend to be used more for punctuation or effect, and can be included where (in Bristol) I wouldn't expected them (e.g. before a catapult or a basket), or unexpectedy left out entirely (which wrong-foots the innocent LeRoc Lady).
So - why are returns so undesirable?
Anything that starts "Semi-circle with the hand and step back"...Originally Posted by spindr
Chris puts the case for the prosecution here:Originally Posted by Lou
Returning the same old moves.
Interesting thread. I think I remember it. I'm still wondering what the problem is with "returns". Is it because they're dull? Should they be made more fancy, replaced by some other form of turning anticlockwise, or just left out entirely?Originally Posted by MartinHarper
I still wouldn't mind hearing from MouthoftheSouth (or anyone) as to why returns shouldn't be included, and what, if anything, is put in. I'm just interested...
Sorry - poor wording on my part - it's more like advanced dancers are not expected the NEED returns....at least not so much.Originally Posted by DavidJames
And given the definition above was that a ceroc move is a dance where you do the return & push away thing, then are those moves without returns & push away still ceroc?
I don't think it's a rule: it's a guideline/technique to help you understand more about moves and how they can go together. With returns after every move, you will find that the dance can't actually follow the music because the move ends when the musical phrase continues and you have to go into another move. (OK, so you stretch/trim the move to match - but you can only do that for so long.)Originally Posted by Lou
Reducing/eliminating the returns makes the dance more 'liquid' and become less dissjointed. It allows you to develop combinations and small micro-routines of three or four moves blend into something that flows well.
I think that it's one of the steps you take in improving your ability to improvise and learn how to create new moves and put moves together.
A return is a "turning" link move that can be used between other moves - you can have a man's turn or turn-away or collect the lady or...
You also have lots of "blocking" links like a push-spin or ceroc-spin that can be used to join moves.
If you are taking out the 'standard' return, then it forces you to think on other ways you can acheive the same results. Over all, this leads to more confidence and better ability to turn mistakes into highlights.
So why do Ceroc teach a return after (almost) every move? I would say it's a good practice for beginners for lots of reasons.
The "standard" here seems to be beginners are taught a return after every move, intermediates are taught moves in pairs with a return between each pair, and advanced tends to be few returns if any.
I guess returns are not really interpretations of the music - they're a break to let you gather your thoughts and prepare for eth next "real" move. as such they are very useful for dancers learnign the basics - I'm not knocking them at all.
It's just that I usually don't need to use them any more.
I find that returns have become part of my "muscle memory", and are natural. I tried to learn an intermediate class a while ago where the teacher had omitted the "unecessary" returns, and I could not "get it" by the end of the class. I was a very dicomforting class. Once we got into freestyle I had one more stab at the routine, but with the returns in place. To my surprise I got it easily. I think I would have been better served trying to omit returns using beginners moves, just learning one thing at once.Originally Posted by MouthoftheSouth
Interesting and I take special interest being the Wellington Advanced teacherOriginally Posted by MouthoftheSouth
Infact we spent a whole advanced class teaching style techniques for turns and returns
I believe that before I arrived in Wellington they did try and keep returns out of the loop so to speak, not sure why, but then they also taught 12 moves in an advanced class and also the best dancer was the one whose partner went closest to the ceiling
So to get back on thread before I get scolded again, a Ceroc move is a move that fits in with what you are doing at the time. Actually also just to be a little pedantic and cross threading here, there is no such thing as a Ceroc move. You are doing a MJ move at a Ceroc night.
I'll resist the obvious comment...Originally Posted by cerocmetro
Good call!Originally Posted by cerocmetro
I do still do returns, but just not the "I need a return to get back to the right position for the next move" returns (if that makes sense!). Returns are nice - you can elongate them, merge them with other moves, travel with them; they offer a lot of scope for playing around with I think.
Even the basic "return and step back" move is a great lead into a break, for example.
So not doing returns in a class, well I guess there's a case for that, but there's no reason not to use them in freestyle.
Originally Posted by cerocmetro
Personally, I think the more advanced a class, the less moves should be in it. So 4 for beginners, 3 for intermediates and 1 or 2 for advanced sounds about right to me. But perhaps that's just a sign of fading memory on my part...
Sorry Adam - I was of course referring to pre-Adamite times!!
However I do take issue with your statement that the best dancer was the one who could get his partner closest to the roof - I dont' think the criteria for best dancer has actually changed one whit - it was, and still is, about timing, style, technique, etc.
That was the case before you arrived too - however with a slate of essentially amateur teachers and an amateur franchise owner the available teaching expertise was limited - as in the teachers were often (usually!) excellent dancers, but couldn't transfer that knowledge to us all that well.
Originally Posted by cerocmetro
At last the truth is out! There is no such thing as Ceroc, it's a figment of our imaginations.
So when are all the ceroc franchises going to notice??!!
It doesn't matter, because it follows that they are also figments of our imagination....Originally Posted by MouthoftheSouth
Maybe it's a reverse takeover, and they are soon going to be renamed Rebel Roc franchisesOriginally Posted by Lou
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