Floppy arms

[LMC]

ok, so I've only been to ceroc 4 times, also done a teensy weensy bit of salsa and ballroom.

Had a lovely compliment from a taxi dancer tonight who told me I was really good at being led (more like I haven't a clue what I'm b****y doing, so I have to do as I'm told for a nice change). Unfortunately, I just can't get the tension in my arms right, which means that I fall over every time I have to do a push spin

Any tips?

Fanks in advance

[El Salsero Gringo]

Can you spin on your own without a lead? If you can do that without toppling, then most likely it's a problem that lies with the person that's leading pushing you off balance and not your fault. Does it happen with an experienced leader too?

[David Bailey]

Had a lovely compliment from a taxi dancer tonight who told me I was really good at being led (more like I haven't a clue what I'm b****y doing, so I have to do as I'm told for a nice change). Unfortunately, I just can't get the tension in my arms right, which means that I fall over every time I have to do a push spin

Any tips?

Fanks in advance

Hi NewKid - welcome!

I dunno if tension is the problem - with a pushspin (as opposed to a Ceroc spin), it's not such a forceful lead that you always require tension to do it well. As El Salsero Gringo says, if you can spin on your own, you're probably OK.

In fact, it may even be that you're being pushed too hard, and you're trying to spin too fast, that causes you to balance poorly. Maybe try to slow it down a little?

[LMC]

Can you spin on your own without a lead? If you can do that without toppling, then most likely it's a problem that lies with the person that's leading pushing you off balance and not your fault. Does it happen with an experienced leader too?

1. Yep
2. Inevitably, as a complete beginner, I'm dancing with lots of beginners who are tentative leads - not a complaint btw, I appreciate any practice I can get, with anyone! So that probably doesn't help. Of course it's easier with an experienced dancer 'cos there's way less temptation to try to lead it myself.
3. Yep

I have actually been told by a couple of more experienced dancers that I need more tension in my arms (hand hold is fine) and from what you guys have said I guess it's just gonna be a case of more practice. At least I'm a good "follower" for a newbie!

Thanks both (or if you prefer!)

[Doc Iain]

Personally, IMHO, both men and women need to keep the correct amount of tension. Imagine yourself in a ball room hold and the tension and "frame" that you need for that (ie. from shoulder blade to elbow... i think!). That way you combine the tension with relaxation of your lower forearm and wrist when needed (drop wrist in normal ceroc hand hold!)
Hopefully then when the guys leads a spin you have a good solid frame in which to take the lead. Of course if he pushs up in the air or over your head or too hard or too soft it will all go wrong.... its hard being a man :p

[MartinHarper]

Given that a push spin is entirely leadable in a "no touching" dance, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on tension and frame and suchlike as a cause of falling over.

When spinning solo or whilst leading, I spin when I am ready and prepared. When following I'm supposed to spin when my partner leads me to spin. If I'm not ready, for whatever reason, I'm more likely to fall over.

[LMC]

Slightly off-topic here, but I'd just like to give a big up to taxi dancers

Had a bit of a chat to another lovely taxi dancer tonight 'cos I was starting to get a bit demoralised - and he reckons I just need more practice (and he complimented me on following well too ). I'm just impatient is all.

Definitely better with a good lead... but that's a no-brainer innit?

[David Bailey]

Given that a push spin is entirely leadable in a "no touching" dance, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on tension and frame and suchlike as a cause of falling over.

I was a little puzzled by all this frame stuff for that move, but then I'm also a little slow, so I thought maybe I'd missed something.

A push-spin with floppy arms (if this is indeed the case here) wouldn't cause balance problems - the follower just wouldn't spin, they'd just stand there looking silly (at least, that's the way I was taught it)

The only way I can visualise someone falling over (assuming they can spin by themselves), is the opposite - i.e. being pushed too hard and fast. A pushspin is a relatively gentle lead - certainly compared to the ceroc spin - and it shouldn't cause you to fall over.

Hmmm, this is bugging me now...

[LMC]

A push-spin with floppy arms (if this is indeed the case here) wouldn't cause balance problems - the follower just wouldn't spin, they'd just stand there looking silly (at least, that's the way I was taught it)

The only way I can visualise someone falling over (assuming they can spin by themselves), is the opposite - i.e. being pushed too hard and fast. A pushspin is a relatively gentle lead - certainly compared to the ceroc spin - and it shouldn't cause you to fall over.

I think what you're saying is that if the follower's arms (in this case mine ) are floppy then they won't have the momentum to get round - & if the tempo is fast, that's a Bad Thing (as I discovered last night ). I can see that being pushed too hard would knock you off balance, but, er, I'm not a small girl! (5'9 and "big-boned" ).

Hmmm, this is bugging me now...

[RogerR]

Firstly Welcome to this world dancing is addictive.
Second Congratulations! you've discovered tension there are people who never do!! a balanced tension in the lead and follow makes dancing so much better. The clue to successful spinning .....stick back and lots of rudder pedal ........ is the word/idea UP stand upright head level then you spin about your own axis and the rotation only spins you. If you crumple and look at the ground you will wobble and become disorientated easily. Once you feel a lead into a spin YOU decide when to take the tension away. If you spin easily you take the lead and then go on your own, if you need the power for the spin then let your partner push you as you spin.

[Little Monkey]

Hi New Kid!

I know you said you can spin on your own, so maybe the following tip is useless.... Anyway, what kind of shoes do you dance in? I know a lot of beginner ladies wear shoes with rather sticky soles, and when they try to spin, they stick, and end up falling over. But as you can actually spin on your own, this might not be the problem...

Secondly, as already pointed out by RogerR, keep your head up, don't look down, as it will cause you to get dizzy and fall over. Look at your partner instead! And keep your body straight.

I used to, and advice beginners to do the same, practice spinning at home, using the wall, doorframe etc to push off for my spin. This gives you a good indication of how little force it actually takes to make someone spin, and is also a good practice to get tension in your arms.

Happy dancing!

LM

[jockey]

Hi "New Kid" -
Its one of my things 'floppy arms' :so here goes....
The man has to move your body and he has to use your arm as a lever to do it; if your arm moves back as he pushes it and your body stays where it is then the move fails; if you tense your arm so that it is like the handle of a tea cup i.e., attached to the cup, then the arm will move the body as the handle lifts the cup - result, LIFT OFF!
It is not very satisfying for the man if there is give because he is looking for instant response in the interests of crisp dancing. At the same time as providing tension or resistance in the arms the lady needs a relaxed grip - often when I ask for a little more resistance I get the iron grip as well : it is a delicate balance to get both tension and a relaxed grip.
You will get there...

[Whitebeard]

I most often encounter floppy arms when attempting to lead an American Spin (left to right hold and clockwise spin) and I'm still working on how to "signal" that move.

With "push" spins I'm gradually learning how little input is required of the leader with a good and responsive follower. If there is resistance, that flat hand barely moves and the follower decides how much "push" is required. If the followers arm is on the "floppy" side I just have to push and follow through hoping that eventually the follower will catch on.

[Trish]

Hi "New Kid" -
Its one of my things 'floppy arms' :so here goes....
The man has to move your body and he has to use your arm as a lever to do it; if your arm moves back as he pushes it and your body stays where it is then the move fails; if you tense your arm so that it is like the handle of a tea cup i.e., attached to the cup, then the arm will move the body as the handle lifts the cup - result, LIFT OFF!
It is not very satisfying for the man if there is give because he is looking for instant response in the interests of crisp dancing. At the same time as providing tension or resistance in the arms the lady needs a relaxed grip - often when I ask for a little more resistance I get the iron grip as well : it is a delicate balance to get both tension and a relaxed grip.
You will get there...

I liked this description - sounds helpful to me! The thing about the shoes could also cause you difficulties, although I'd have thought you'd have come across that one before if you've tried salsa/ballroom.

I have found the occasional woman when I'm taxiing, who tends to try to fling herself round when she feels the lead for a spin, and therefore ends up overspinning and falling about. This is the only other thing I can think of that could be happening. If this is the case, try the tea-cup analogy above, and try to let yourself be lead from the shoulder, up straight, rather than wrenching yourself around from your feet. If you've been doing lots of dancing and already know this, please ignore me, I'm not trying to be patronising, just trying to think of things that I've come across with beginners and spinning problems.

Hope you get it sorted out soon!

PS, I found as a beginner, that the women taxi dancers who lead were the most help in sorting out problems of this sort, as they can lead, but are also used to spinning. I'm sure this is also the case with men who follow, but I didn't immediately come across any of those !

[DavidB]

I know one lady who has very floppy arms, but still follows moves really well. But the only way I know where she is is by watching her all the time. This makes it harder for me to work out what to do next.


The primary job of the follower is to follow her hand. Wherever it goes she follows. However unless I'm doing drops or aerials then her body is her own responsibility - it is up to her to provide the power to move.

It is entirely possible to follow your hand with a floppy arm, and is probably easier than doing it with a rigid arm. You just have to react very quickly.

The idea of providing connection is not so much to help the follower to follow, but to let the leader know where she is, what she is doing, and what she can do next. The easiest way to do this is 'match the pressure'. If the man pushes towards you, push towards him. If he pulls away, then pull away from him. THere are benefits for the follower - 'following the hand' becomes more natural and a lot easier.


If you take the example of a Ceroc spin.

The most important thing is getting her in a position to spin - ie on balance, on the correct foot and her body 'prepared' for the spin by being slightly twisted the opposite way. Then the actual spin is easy.

I do not try to physically push her whole body around using her arm. Instead I simply push her hand away from mine. I also make sure my arm isn't floppy in case she wants to push away from me. There is no need for me to do any more. The lady's hand has been pushed round in a circle with her body in the centre. She just follows her hand and spins on the spot.

If I tried to provide all the power to spin her, and mistimed it slightly, then it could really hurt her. But by just providing a lead then the worst that can happen is that it doesn't get followed.