Condescending leads

[LMC]

It is just possible the the "Well done" that will send you straight to hell if delivered to one of these, may just make the evening for a nervous beginner.

But please be specific - "well done" can sound really condescending sometimes, as it don't really mean anything and a beginner (well, I may only be speaking for me here, to be fair) might think you are just being nice, because most of us are well aware that you experienced guys will probably have a more fun dance with a more experienced partner and appreciate you taking time out to "show us the ropes". (NB OK, I know this probably does not apply if the beginner lady is drop-dead gorgeous ). I should punctuate that shouldn't I? WTH.

Getting back to the point - someone telling me that I follow well for a newbie, followed by a bit of constructive criticism/advice on what I could do better shows that they have been paying attention to me ( @ needy me) and have put some thought into the 3.5 mins 'experience'. Means WAY more than "well done". IMVHO.

[David Bailey]

Getting back to the point - someone telling me that I follow well for a newbie, followed by a bit of constructive criticism/advice on what I could do better shows that they have been paying attention to me ( @ needy me) and have put some thought into the 3.5 mins 'experience'. Means WAY more than "well done". IMVHO.

Can't deny it, but most of us men are just lazy - plus, after this thread, we're all way too scared of commenting on anybody's dance style

Also, I've had people ask me "what can I do better" and I just can't remember - generally I'm paying too much attention to the dancing to analyse someone's technique, unless I'm asked to do so beforehand.

Plus, there's the whole British thing of not wanting to criticize. Dumb, but it's there...

[LMC]

Forgot

If a beginner is not smiling then it may indeed be because they are concentrating.

For many beginners concentrating on smiling may be a better strategy in the long run. one reason is that you will not get the dances needed to improve if you look like you are in pain. Another reason is that dancing is about communication, and facial expression is a fundamental form of communication..

Noted, thanks <<< practising

[mick]

This thread makes mj seem like some kind of gruelling experience!

[bigdjiver]

This thread makes mj seem like some kind of gruelling experience!

Am I allowed to tell my partner that I like her dress?

[Northants Girly]

Am I allowed to tell my partner that I like her dress?

. . Yes

[ducasi]

I think you also get extra points for saying you like her shoes.

[DavidB]

This thread makes mj seem like some kind of gruelling experience!

It is. That is why people keep saying "Please Sir, can I have some more?"

[Little Monkey]

(And thank-you LM, for being one of those people who are prepared to say when we get it wrong.)

You're welcome! As long as people don't pat me on the head and talk to me as if I'm a clever little doggie, I'll be nice and help if someone's stuck with a move. If not, I will be Evil Monkey with the Stony Face or Frozen Grin! Very scary.

Indeed - some of them find being "corrected" condescending, for example...

Ooooh, this could get SO complicated!!! Maybe I should just shut up and dance..... Or just stop dancing, in case my footwork/shoes/smile/hairstyle/dance style might seem condescending/offensive to someone.....

Ive never much worried about that, I do tend to say Sorry a lot for confusing leads and just generally dancing rubbish, but I try to see every mistake as just a variation on the move I was actually trying to do - so as long as it fits the music I do sometimes repeat a move if i REALLY buggered it up completely which caused my partner to ad-lib and 9 times out of 10 she gets it the 2nd time, because I actually lead it properly Its comments like LMs that make me realise Im maybe not as bad as I think I am, which is good as I need the confidence. (and please no ..."oh you are good " follow ups...its just a comment )

Sometimes mistakes work, and I've danced with guys who have done moves I've never seen before, and when I say "Wow! That was a cool move! Where did you learn that?", they reply "I haven't got a clue what I was doing there! Did it work?"

Ooooh, and Mr. Smurf, I can't wait to dance with you again! We can spend the entire dance apologising to each other for not leading/following properly! I keep saying sorry every time I don't follow properly, and some of my mates keep telling me off for doing so....

Anyway. I'll go away and practice smiling, saying sorry and NOT being condescending or bithcy now. And hopefully a couple of people will still want to dance with me in the future....

Cheeky Little Monkey

[jockey]

I don't like it when someone (usually someone you don't know or who dances with you infrequently) picks a move (that they've usualy lead badly) and repeats it over and over again until you (by some strange coincidence, as they've still not lead it properly) do what they want you to do and then they say something like "See, it's not that difficult is it?!"
It's one thing to be taught a move by a teacher, but when some irritating so-and-so who thinks they know best decided that you need training to do their moves it gets my back up. There are ways and ways of getting people to do what you want - I might suggest that leading it correctly would be the first and best option!
S. x

I can sympathise with this post to some extent but I would like to offer a different point of view, Sparkles....
First you have created a "straw man" - the dancer who repeats a move that didnt "take" "over and over again" until it takes and makes a patronising remark when all the time the fault usually lies in the lead. This may happen but more common is the scenario where an experienced dancer visits a new venue leads something unusual and tolerably well and the girl doesnt get it - the accepted (and acceptable, I maintain) thing to do is to repeat the move. This says - " I can tell you are a good dancer and the least I can do is try it again so you can see what I am getting at.." ; " if I dont repeat it you may think I think you cant do it and it would be insulting of me to leave you with that impression.."
Of course what the lead is up to vis a vis his ego and that of the girl can only be guessed at but, speaking for myself, I try to respect my partner and give her the best dance I can using my best moves in the belief that she will welcome something a bit different occasionally. This view should be distinguished from the well known practice of "testing" your partner.. which girls tell me they dont appreciate...Anyhow you are good but sorry about that overenthusiastic screwdriver at GWich..

[jockey]

Though I have been jiving for 5 years or more I still do a lot of classes, sometimes at far flung venues. Now, since the classes preceed the freestyle I leave myself open to plenty of condescention (sp?) as, to all intents and purposes one is Joe Bloggs as far as the class is concerned and EVERYONE assumes we are all of the same (low) standard.
The other week this occurred in spades: my Basque partner wanted to do Minnies Latin American workshop in Sussex..you do the beginners and I will do the intermediate, she said. Yes, says me (foolish boy..)
Now one has done a few manhattans in one"s time and one knows all about the "frame" dont ye know and I found myself having to cope with "spaghetti arms (is that appropriate for a salsa class, or what?) with a young lady who was fully aware that were a few plucky modern jivers around trying to pick up some "proper footwork". Becoming increasingly frustrated over dancing with porridge I suggested that we adjust our "frame" a tad, to which she replied, quick as a flash, "you are a jiver, aren"t you...." implying that I knew nothing and had some cheek attempting to correct her salsaing. We both downed tools and stood there arms crossed for the remainder of that section!

[David Bailey]

This may happen but more common is the scenario where an experienced dancer visits a new venue leads something unusual and tolerably well and the girl doesnt get it - the accepted (and acceptable, I maintain) thing to do is to repeat the move. This says - " I can tell you are a good dancer and the least I can do is try it again so you can see what I am getting at.." ; " if I dont repeat it you may think I think you cant do it and it would be insulting of me to leave you with that impression.."

Excellent point, Mr Jockey - that's what I was trying to say, but couldn't because of lack of articulacy.

Repeating a move isn't a bad thing - multiple repeats, maybe, but a repeat of a move, if the lead is sure he's leading it OK, is a good way to demonstrate something which may be new to the follower.

A classic example is this straightjacket move. I'd say approximately 50% of the followers I do this with, the first time, they either get it wrong or get a look of terror on their faces. I carry on trying it, however, not because I'm a sadist, but because when you do get it right, it's a lovely move.

And that's one of the few moves that the follower can and does mess up - i.e. an anticipation trap. But I still do it, because it's a good move - did it lots of times just last night at Hipsters, for example (and where were all you forumites? Didn't see anyone... )

Becoming increasingly frustrated over dancing with porridge I suggested that we adjust our "frame" a tad, to which she replied, quick as a flash, "you are a jiver, aren"t you...." implying that I knew nothing and had some cheek attempting to correct her salsaing. We both downed tools and stood there arms crossed for the remainder of that section!

It's so true - I always think it's amusing that salseros (and salseras) think they have a "proper" dance in salsa, but Modern Jive isn't "proper", when the only real difference is that salsa has a small amount of defined footwork, and a more limited set of dancing options...

[Mr Cool]

And it wouldn't help me - we've got different names for things around here...

Good question. My biggest hate is when I've failed to perform a move with a partner & he just turns to me and says "Oh, you don't know that one, then? We do it at such-and-such venue". I find that very condescending.

We also have one chap here who over-emphasises the move, signals loudly, and points to where he wants you to step, etc... It looks a bit naff, IMO. But some ladies might like it.

Real dance is about lead and follow. If the man cannot lead the move it is his problem. I think most ladies would agree that they want to be led with style and cofidence, and many prefer to be given time to add their own footwork shimmies etc. Gentelmen before you lead that lady into a complicated knot of a move think style think less is more.

[Minnie M]

Real dance is about lead and follow. If the man cannot lead the move it is his problem. I think most ladies would agree that they want to be led with style and cofidence, and many prefer to be given time to add their own footwork shimmies etc. Gentelmen before you lead that lady into a complicated knot of a move think style think less is more.

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllcommmmmmmmmmme Mr.Cool - where do you dance can I have a dance please

(just checked your location - I should have said when will you be dancing in the London area etc - Swindon is too far for me to travel to)

[Mr Cool]

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllcommmmmmmmmmme Mr.Cool - where do you dance can I have a dance please

(just checked your location - I should have said when will you be dancing in the London area etc - Swindon is too far for me to travel to)

Well as it happens I was at Hipsters last night I like to go big Freestyle events MJ or Swing I have been to the dances at hove town hall in the past so we have probably danced already

[Lory]

I was at Hipsters last night

So was I! Wonder if we danced

p.s. welcome to the forum!

[Minnie M]

Well as it happens I was at Hipsters last night I like to go big Freestyle events MJ or Swing I have been to the dances at hove town hall in the past so we have probably danced already

Didn't go last night mind you even if I did, don't know who you are

BTW I only go to the Phil's Charitry events at Hove Town Hall (not the other organiser ) cors Phil's Events for Charity are the BEST...... next one is the Southport Weekend which is a shame as I would have gone

Looking forward to meeting you Mr. Cool, and then will introduce you to the rest of the gang (if you want me to that is )

{apologies for going off thread}

[Lou]

Looking forward to meeting you Mr. Cool, and then will introduce you to the rest of the gang (if you want me to that is )

Even more off topic:-
Ahhh... I know the lovely Mr Cool, and have danced with him on several occasions, including once in the middle of Swindon town centre. Might see you later, Andy, if I can bring myself to venture to Swindon tonight. Have you got your fancy dress sorted? Oh, and welcome to this forum, too...

[Mr Cool]

Didn't go last night mind you even if I did, don't know who you are

BTW I only go to the Phil's Charitry events at Hove Town Hall (not the other organiser ) cors Phil's Events for Charity are the BEST...... next one is the Southport Weekend which is a shame as I would have gone

Looking forward to meeting you Mr. Cool, and then will introduce you to the rest of the gang (if you want me to that is )

{apologies for going off thread}

I dance any where all I need is music that makes my feet want to dance and theres a lady with Rythm. I have been to at least two of the big charity events at Hove shame they seem to have stopped. Whats happened? I probably know your mates as i have danced with many ladies from the Brighton area at different events including Camber, (I love the music in the swing and blues room) and yes I am going to Southport next weekend it was great in September.

[Mr Cool]

:

So was I! Wonder if we danced

p.s. welcome to the forum!

Thanks for the greeting I dont think we danced last night. Its a little while since I have been to Hipsters and I enjoyed it how would you describe the optimum lead?