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Thread: Condescending leads

  1. #81
    Registered User Daintyfeet's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    Well, actually I'm never stony-faced! My natural expression is a smile... And two of my friends remarked that I do smile whenever I'm dancing with them.

    As to what was on the man's mind when he said it - perhaps he's just a miserable *** who likes having a pop at other people in order to raise his low self-esteem!
    Or perhaps he says it to every woman he dances with. I must say I was finding his leads unclear and so that's probably why I wasn't smiling! I'll look out for him next time and try watching the faces of the other ladies he dances with.

    And as to looking like I want to be with the person I'm dancing with - being new I am just so grateful to anybody who asks me to dance that I thank them profusely at the beginning, as well as at the end.

  2. #82
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by Daintyfeet
    Well, actually I'm never stony-faced! My natural expression is a smile... And two of my friends remarked that I do smile whenever I'm dancing with them.

    As to what was on the man's mind when he said it - perhaps he's just a miserable *** who likes having a pop at other people in order to raise his low self-esteem!
    Or perhaps he says it to every woman he dances with. I must say I was finding his leads unclear and so that's probably why I wasn't smiling! I'll look out for him next time and try watching the faces of the other ladies he dances with.

    And as to looking like I want to be with the person I'm dancing with - being new I am just so grateful to anybody who asks me to dance that I thank them profusely at the beginning, as well as at the end.
    Wow. If the dancers to whom you're grateful get slagged off in public as condescending miserable gits with low self-esteem who can't lead, I can't wait to find out how you'd describe someone you don't want to dance with!


  3. #83
    Cheeky by nature Little Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkles
    I don't like it when someone (usually someone you don't know or who dances with you infrequently) picks a move (that they've usualy lead badly) and repeats it over and over again until you (by some strange coincidence, as they've still not lead it properly) do what they want you to do and then they say something like "See, it's not that difficult is it?!"

    I've had the same thing happening to me, and it's VERY annoying! Also followed by pat on the shoulder, patronising smile and "well done". I've also had people trying to lead moves I know well, but in such a bad way that I simply don't have a clue what they're trying to do (!!), until the guy starts to explain what he wants me to do. I have in some cases tried to give him some helpful hints about his lead, trying to explain that if the move isn't lead properly, the girl can't possibly know what he wants her to do....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    {snip}..... even though his lead was completely wrong, I didn't wish to appear rude so I did what he'd showed me and with that, he turned to me, with a contented and smug smile, and proudly said, there you go, you've almost got it now!
    Yep, experienced this, too....... Have danced with relative beginners (or people who have only danced for a few months), where they have done only beginners moves, and explained throughout the dance what they want me to do! ( Yeah, you step back, great, then to my side, well done, then you kind of twist, twist, then spin, great!) Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

    I must admit that after dancing with people like this, face frozen in what is probably a very stiff grin (biting my tongue so I won't scream: "if you want me to follow, learn to lead! In the meantime SHUT UP!!!"), I try to pick a partner who I love dancing with, and who is a bit of a show-off, then try to dance in front of where my previous partner is sitting....... Ooooh, bitch, me... Sorry....

    LM

  4. #84
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    You know, one of the things that I find most condescending is when someone you're dancing with pretends to be following your lead, or pretends to smile, or pretends to enjoy themselves, or otherwise fakes some part of their dance, and then comes on to a public forum to bitch about it behind your back.

    If we're not doing something right, then "playing along" isn't going to do anything but make the problem worse - whatever your motives (and being condescending is *always* done with the best motives.)

    At least the lady that thought I was dancing off the beat had the strength of character to say something about it at the time.

    Please, please, be clear, be precise, say what you don't like - at the time - then we can put it right.

    Thank you all

    Last edited by El Salsero Gringo; 28th-May-2005 at 06:19 PM.

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    Re: Condescending leads

    I think that, perhaps, anybody reading this thread should remember that most of the lady contributors here have been dancing a long time, and are rather good at it. It is just possible the the "Well done" that will send you straight to hell if delivered to one of these, may just make the evening for a nervous beginner.

    If an experienced lady is not smiling they probably have no reason to smile, and the fault is probably with the lead. Even then it may be nothing that the lead can fix. If a beginner is not smiling then it may indeed be because they are concentrating. For many beginners concentrating on smiling may be a better strategy in the long run. one reason is that you will not get the dances needed to improve if you look like you are in pain. Another reason is that dancing is about communication, and facial expression is a fundamental form of communication.
    Jerome K Jerome wrote that he could contract a disease just by reading about it. I know how he felt. Either I am sometimes arrogant and condescending, or I have contracted those faults just by reading about them.
    I may have to take a longer route home to consider these extra matters.

  6. #86
    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    First of all I have tons of admiration for all those guys (and girls) out there who can lead. I think I am pants at leading, although I think I know how I like to be lead - basically if I can follow it then it's been led well.

    On the social dance floor if I am lead, well, not great then that is not really the time or place to say anything - it sounds like nagging. If I am leading in a class I am always asking my partner for feedback. Tried leading at a Jango class (phew, hard or what!), but got loads out of in terms of leading precisely and had a spread of abilities in followers, and it became very clear when I was leading badly. Then trying to do it with timing......aargh. I had loads of giggles (and I think most of my partners did as well), and got loads of feedback and correction.

    I think I have a lot more patience with guys who have not been dancing long and may (if the opportunity presents itself) suggest some things that might make some stuff easier. However, I suppose I must sound condescending when I say 'thanks' to people who I know have been dancing a while and should know better. And yes, I am very guilty of saying 'thank you, that was lovely' even when I have had my arm bounced out of it's socket!! It's just I'm a bad liar!!! Is that so bad? And I'm sure I've been on the receiving end of the same. I just live with it and try and improve.

    Oh, dear, way past my bedtime. I must be an addict.

    M

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    Re: Condescending leads

    Since my original post I am now receiving a regular pat on the head.
    That'll teach me!!!

    Be careful what you post here...

  8. #88
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I think that, perhaps, anybody reading this thread should remember that most of the lady contributors here have been dancing a long time, and are rather good at it. It is just possible the the "Well done" that will send you straight to hell if delivered to one of these, may just make the evening for a nervous beginner.
    and many times

    There's definitely a fine line between condescending and encouraging, and sometimes it seems to be in the perception rather than the intention.

    I also think through reading this thread, if I took it too seriously I'd actually make my dancing worse - I'd spending all my time wondering whether I was being condescending, and no time actually giving a lead. Let's not overreact to a very very specific and very infrequent complaints on either side.

    This is the most divisive thread since, well, at least a week ago - can I just go against all my natural instincts here and call for a bit of calm?

    Leaders: I don't believe you're seen as condescending 99% of the time. Please carry on providing encouragement as you have been; it's generally appreciated, especially by beginners.

    Followers: I don't believe leaders try to be condescending 99% of the time. Give leaders the benefit of the doubt, and assume they're trying to help and encourage you, rather than patronize you.

    Everyone - pat JoC on the head at every opportunity

  9. #89
    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    Now I'm awake I have just read my response to this thread - think I was way off the point, sorry folks.

    And I don't mind a pat on the head - most people do it 'cos I'm so short. I don't mind guys 'appearing' to be condescending (sometimes things sound condescending when they are not meant to be - it just comes out all wrong). So long as they are not rude I don't really mind.

    M

  10. #90
    Cheeky by nature Little Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    You know, one of the things that I find most condescending is when someone you're dancing with pretends to be following your lead, or pretends to smile, or pretends to enjoy themselves, or otherwise fakes some part of their dance, and then comes on to a public forum to bitch about it behind your back.

    If we're not doing something right, then "playing along" isn't going to do anything but make the problem worse - whatever your motives (and being condescending is *always* done with the best motives.)
    Actually, a few people take quite badly to being "corrected"..... Although I think you're right that most people appreciate being told they're doing something wrong, so they can correct it and become better dancers!

    In most cases if a man is clearly leading a move wrong, I do try to say "maybe you should try xxxxx. That'll make the lead much clearer and easier to follow." It's just when the guy really thinks he's fab, and really patronizes you that I do my "grin-and-bear-it" act. It's all to do with the guy's attitude and the way he treats his dance partner.... And very often, if a man leads something I can't follow, I do say something like "Ooops, I have no clue what to do! Sorry! Could you show me that move again?" I make mistakes like everyone else, and do appreciate it if a guy takes time to do the move again, to show me what I'm doing wrong.

    I think most people who have posted on this thread so far are describing general situations/behaviour rather than bitching about someone specific... I know I did....

    Hmmmm, maybe we need another poll? "Do you fake it on the dance floor"? ESG - this seems to be your area of speciality....

    LM

  11. #91
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey
    Actually, a few people take quite badly to being "corrected"..... Although I think you're right that most people appreciate being told they're doing something wrong, so they can correct it and become better dancers!

    In most cases if a man is clearly leading a move wrong, I do try to say "maybe you should try xxxxx. That'll make the lead much clearer and easier to follow." It's just when the guy really thinks he's fab, and really patronizes you that I do my "grin-and-bear-it" act. It's all to do with the guy's attitude and the way he treats his dance partner.... And very often, if a man leads something I can't follow, I do say something like "Ooops, I have no clue what to do! Sorry! Could you show me that move again?" I make mistakes like everyone else, and do appreciate it if a guy takes time to do the move again, to show me what I'm doing wrong.

    I think most people who have posted on this thread so far are describing general situations/behaviour rather than bitching about someone specific... I know I did....

    Hmmmm, maybe we need another poll? "Do you fake it on the dance floor"? ESG - this seems to be your area of speciality....

    LM
    I assume everyone 'fakes it' on the dance floor to some extent, after all not *every* dance is going to be great fun - and Mary's right to say that the social dance-floor is not the place for an extended teaching session. But if you do pass up the opportunity to deal with it at the time, how kind is it to bitch about it here afterwards?

    If I had consented to being subjected to forty repetitions of the same poorly lead move because I refused to tell the man - "enough now!" - then actually I'd be the one feeling pretty stupid at the end of the dance. And then if I wrote all about it on this thread it would be only to poke fun at myself for having put up with it.

    To be honest, if someone does or says something to me that I find condescending, I assume it's my fault for mistaking their intent or misreading the context. I envy some their unshakeable conviction that however much anyone's behaviour offends or upsets them, they have done nothing to contribute to it.

    (And thank-you LM, for being one of those people who are prepared to say when we get it wrong.)

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    Re: Condescending leads

    I'm quite incapable of spotting condescension, so someone can quite happilly patronise me for an entire dance ("ooh, another first move! how original!") without me realising. Ignorance is bliss, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey
    Actually, a few people take quite badly to being "corrected".....
    Indeed - some of them find being "corrected" condescending, for example...

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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Everyone - pat JoC on the head at every opportunity
    This is playing havoc with my attempts to create a dangerous and seductive alter-ego.

    And hands up who's complelety paranoid about every smile, laugh and comment now

    Have decided to turn evil to avoid any further confusion.

  14. #94
    Registered User Rhythm King's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by JoC
    Have decided to turn evil to avoid any further confusion.
    There there, never mind little Jo, pat pat...







    ( Muhuhuhuhuhuhurrrr!)

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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary

    And I don't mind a pat on the head
    Ill make a point of it next time we dance Mary Course a pat on the bottom is probably sexist so Ill save that for Tony

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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey

    I've had the same thing happening to me, and it's VERY annoying! Also followed by pat on the shoulder, patronising smile and "well done". I've also had people trying to lead moves I know well, but in such a bad way that I simply don't have a clue what they're trying to do (!!), until the guy starts to explain what he wants me to do. I have in some cases tried to give him some helpful hints about his lead, trying to explain that if the move isn't lead properly, the girl can't possibly know what he wants her to do....
    Ive never much worried about that, I do tend to say Sorry a lot for confusing leads and just generally dancing rubbish, but I try to see every mistake as just a variation on the move I was actually trying to do - so as long as it fits the music I do sometimes repeat a move if i REALLY buggered it up completely which caused my partner to ad-lib and 9 times out of 10 she gets it the 2nd time, because I actually lead it properly Its comments like LMs that make me realise Im maybe not as bad as I think I am, which is good as I need the confidence. (and please no ..."oh you are good " follow ups...its just a comment )
    Last edited by Dreadful Scathe; 31st-May-2005 at 03:20 PM.

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    Re: Condescending leads

    I danced with a first timer yesterday. Afterwards I told her that she had done very well, and that some of the moves we had done were not beginner moves. I did not think that was "condescending". Her next partner might disagree. It was a Taxi-dancer, and he put her into a single-handed, very shaky, drop, her hair almost touching the floor.

  18. #98
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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    It was a Taxi-dancer, and he put her into a single-handed, very shaky, drop, her hair almost touching the floor.
    Hope she doesn't scare easily, that would have put me off coming back to ceroc when i first started.

  19. #99
    Registered User Northants Girly's Avatar
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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I danced with a first timer yesterday. Afterwards I told her that she had done very well, and that some of the moves we had done were not beginner moves. I did not think that was "condescending". Her next partner might disagree. It was a Taxi-dancer, and he put her into a single-handed, very shaky, drop, her hair almost touching the floor.
    Was that at Bedford?

    Mmmmm . . . .

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    Re: Condescending leads

    Quote Originally Posted by Northants Girly
    Was that at Bedford?

    Mmmmm . . . .
    No MJ in Bedford on a Wednesday, alas, only three nights a week + freestyles.

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