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Thread: DWAS Judging

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    DWAS Judging

    Something thats always puzzled me is the title "Dance with a Stranger" for a competition - lucky dip is probably more appropriate on the grounds that
    a) the percentage of people dancing with someone they don't know is usually very small - especially when you go through to the higher rounds
    b) most people aren't *that* strange

    That aside, how do you think judges should award marks? This obviously differs from judging other types of competition but what do you think is a fair way to ensure everyone gets a fair crack of the whip ?

    Can't say that this would happen at next Mondays DWAS (£200 prize money *shameless plug*) at Finchley but who knows - it may influence the rules which are passed out to the judges !!!

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    Registered User Clive Long's Avatar
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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin
    Something thats always puzzled me is the title "Dance with a Stranger" for a competition - lucky dip is probably more appropriate on the grounds that
    a) the percentage of people dancing with someone they don't know is usually very small - especially when you go through to the higher rounds
    b) most people aren't *that* strange

    That aside, how do you think judges should award marks? This obviously differs from judging other types of competition but what do you think is a fair way to ensure everyone gets a fair crack of the whip ?

    Can't say that this would happen at next Mondays DWAS (£200 prize money *shameless plug*) at Finchley but who knows - it may influence the rules which are passed out to the judges !!!
    Interesting post.

    There has been much complaint about the "secretive" nature of judging in competitions.

    All I can suggest is the old approach used in ice-skating, gymnastics, maybe even dance ..

    Technical complexity - how many well executed "complex" or "advanced" moves (OK, OK let's not reignite that debate again). I would broadly say a pretzel is more complex than first move and gets more marks. But technical complexity gets lowest "weighting"

    Artistic impression - did the dancers respond to changes in mood in the music, respond to breaks? Did they seem to enjoy themselves and convey that to the audience? All subjective stuff.

    and some kind of "intersection" between the two e.g. how well did the dancers move from a spin to a "block" to a sway etc. This is a measure of the dance as a "whole". How "well" were the moves executed irrespective of their difficulty? In this case a well executed First move gets more marks than a clumsy pretzel. This part gets most "weighting".

    That's my opinion.

    Oh, and the points awarded must be public and the judges decision must be absolutely final, no complaints

    Any result could be affected be a contestant complaining "their" track was "worse" than a competitor etc. etc. complaints about favouritism etc.

    Who would be a judge?



    Clive

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    And the 2005 Forum award for the most shamelessly contrived topic created simply to plug a dance event goes to ...

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    And the 2005 Forum award for the most shamelessly contrived topic created simply to plug a dance event goes to ...


    Not true ... but could've been !

    Its just something I've always been curious about - especially after previous experience of judges and competitors disagreements. I was wondering if it might be possible to do sort of a rules "RFC" that everyone would be happy with.

    For those not ubergeek type, RFC = Request for comments = old school internet way of drafting standards which works well!

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin
    Something thats always puzzled me is the title "Dance with a Stranger" for a competition - lucky dip is probably more appropriate on the grounds that
    a) the percentage of people dancing with someone they don't know is usually very small - especially when you go through to the higher rounds
    b) most people aren't *that* strange
    Well, I've ranted on enough about this elsewhere, but why stop now... I'm not desperately worried about the name, but yes, lucky dip may be a little more appropriate. I presume Dance With A Stranger sounds more glamorous or something...

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin
    That aside, how do you think judges should award marks? This obviously differs from judging other types of competition but what do you think is a fair way to ensure everyone gets a fair crack of the whip ?
    Well, obviously, people with names starting "D" should be given bonus marks.

    It's a can of worms, but, considering my comments in the other thread, I'd best be consistent, and say that judging should be based on two components:
    - "Technique": the standard stuff about posture, rhythm, frame, connection, musical interpretation, all that jazz. Basically, same stuff as other competition judging.
    - "Adaptability": something based on the allowance that these two people have been randomly thrown together, and a judgement of how well they can quickly adapt to each other's style. Having said that, I've no idea how that factor could be judged...

    I disagree slightly with Clive (sorry ) about complexity of moves, but I realize that crowd-pleasers are there for a reason.

    (Hmmm, maybe I should put my money where my mouth is, enter it, and just do first move variants all the time... ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive Long
    In this case a well executed First move gets more marks than a clumsy pretzel.
    many times over!

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    And the 2005 Forum award for the most shamelessly contrived topic created simply to plug a dance event goes to ...
    Hey, if that's not a real BFG award, it damned well should be.

    P.S. Is this a "Open" comp, or a "Amateurs only"? For example, do teachers get to compete? Also, I think demo's should be banned...

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    << snip >>
    I disagree slightly with Clive (sorry )
    << snip >>
    Disagree away dear boy.

    As my mother always says, "Better to be disagreed with than ignored"

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    P.S. Is this a "Open" comp, or a "Amateurs only"? For example, do teachers get to compete? Also, I think demo's should be banned...

    I agree !

    However, my thoughts were more that perhaps there needs to be a nice set of rules that effectively mean that irrespective of your dancing "level" you have an equal chance of winning - perhaps some sort of handicap system ? (marks deducted for obvious quips)

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin

    I agree !

    However, my thoughts were more that perhaps there needs to be a nice set of rules that effectively mean that irrespective of your dancing "level" you have an equal chance of winning - perhaps some sort of handicap system ? (marks deducted for obvious quips)
    Interesting... Dunno how it'd work, but it may make sense. Although I'm not sure about an ethos of "We're giving you extra points because you're not very good" - sounds very British to me

    It sounds like our Down Under friends know quite a bit about this sort of thing (especially rolling DWAS's) - maybe one ot them could comment? As has been pointed out, I know very little about competitions...

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    I've been a judge for one fun DWAS.

    The first thing I looked for was the connection between the two dancers - how well each had adapted to the other's dance style, and how much did they appear to be enjoying themselves.

    Then I looked at musicality - if they did flashy crowd pleasing moves, was it actually appropriate to the music? Did they acknowledge breaks, etc...

    And then I looked at complexity of the moves, and how well they were performed in terms of technique.

    But the emphasis on this comp was "fun", so perhaps in a more serious competition there would be more weighting towards the technique and complexity of the moves...

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    I've been a judge for one fun DWAS.

    The first thing I looked for was the connection between the two dancers - how well each had adapted to the other's dance style, and how much did they appear to be enjoying themselves.

    Then I looked at musicality - if they did flashy crowd pleasing moves, was it actually appropriate to the music? Did they acknowledge breaks, etc...

    And then I looked at complexity of the moves, and how well they were performed in terms of technique.

    But the emphasis on this comp was "fun", so perhaps in a more serious competition there would be more weighting towards the technique and complexity of the moves...
    In my (obviously, extremely limited and unworthy) opinion, that sounds like exactly the right approach. Except that a DWAS is pretty much always fun, we hope - I don't see how it could really get to be very serious without changing its nature...

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Except that a DWAS is pretty much always fun, we hope - I don't see how it could really get to be very serious without changing its nature...
    There's fun, and then there's fun... People do take it more seriously at the Champs, etc. This was just part of the entertainment at a local freestyle...

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    I've been a judge for one fun DWAS.

    The first thing I looked for was the connection between the two dancers - how well each had adapted to the other's dance style, and how much did they appear to be enjoying themselves.

    Then I looked at musicality - if they did flashy crowd pleasing moves, was it actually appropriate to the music? Did they acknowledge breaks, etc...

    And then I looked at complexity of the moves, and how well they were performed in terms of technique.

    But the emphasis on this comp was "fun", so perhaps in a more serious competition there would be more weighting towards the technique and complexity of the moves...
    My point is that although how well people dance together and the musical interpretation is important, should we be looking for something more to allow all levels of dancers to have a fair chance. Seems to me that by all current DWAS judging, there is absolutely no way that 2 relatively new or beginner dancers could ever win a DWAS/Licky dip.

    That said, doe it imply that the handicap system would work but needs some way of applying it or that the entry rules themselves need to change?

    Maybe some form of fun "self certification" for handicaps might work ?
    Last edited by Robin; 25th-May-2005 at 02:57 PM.

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin
    Seems to me that by all current DWAS judging, there is absolutely no way that 2 relatively new or beginner dancers could ever win a DWAS/Licky dip.
    Well, if paired together, probably not - I mean, it is a competition, and you are judging on ability to dance, and beginners aren't likely to have so much, as that gets honed with experience.

    Competitions by their nature mean judges are biased towards the most experienced dancers.

    But, maybe there's a way of fiddling, it so that a beginner paired with an experienced dancer could have their inexperience noted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin
    Maybe some form of fun "self certification" for handicaps might work ?
    That's quite original - I like the concept.

    Just don't forget the vital names-beginning-with-D rule

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin
    My point is that although how well people dance together and the musical interpretation is important, should we be looking for something more to allow all levels of dancers to have a fair chance.
    And it's a good point. However, as someone's already said, it seems somewhat odd to give people marks for not dancing as well as others. I don't like the idea of "handicaps", as it takes away from the "fun" aspect by giving people something more to gripe about if their handicap is perceived as unfair. (And you know how we all love a good gripe.... )

    What you can do is change the weighting of what you think is important in the dance. For instance, mark people higher if they look like they're having fun.

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    Re: Finchley - Bank Holiday Monday - DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    I've been a judge for one fun DWAS.

    The first thing I looked for was the connection between the two dancers - how well each had adapted to the other's dance style, and how much did they appear to be enjoying themselves. ....
    My favourite DWAS comps were won by the competitors having most fun. One winner would have been disqualified several times over in any normal competition.

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    Re: DWAS Judging

    I think a fairer system is Jack & Jill. Can't remember exactly how it works, but it means you get more than one crack of the whip with different partners. You dance with a 'stranger', then couples are re-paired at random so they get to dance with another partner. Sounds complicated but it works quite well. You are then judged on indivual ability rather than the luck of having the 'right' partner at that time.

    Ask Nigel or Nina - they can explain the system if you were to think of running it that way.

    M

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    Re: DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary
    I think a fairer system is Jack & Jill. Can't remember exactly how it works, but it means you get more than one crack of the whip with different partners. You dance with a 'stranger', then couples are re-paired at random so they get to dance with another partner. Sounds complicated but it works quite well. You are then judged on indivual ability rather than the luck of having the 'right' partner at that time.

    Ask Nigel or Nina - they can explain the system if you were to think of running it that way.

    M
    I did mention that I was purely interested - I don't really have much input in the scheme of things - thats down to Tezi & Adam.

    However, one of the issues with the "Jack & Jill" or the ilk is that its a logisitcal nightmare when you have 100 or more entrants. You then also need to think about whether you judge the couples on the man basis, woman basis or both.

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    Re: DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin
    I did mention that I was purely interested - I don't really have much input in the scheme of things - thats down to Tezi & Adam.

    However, one of the issues with the "Jack & Jill" or the ilk is that its a logisitcal nightmare when you have 100 or more entrants. You then also need to think about whether you judge the couples on the man basis, woman basis or both.
    Quite understand. However, went to a Jack & Jill a couple of years ago, and there must have been approx. 100 entrants, and it didn't eat into too much freestyle. Tony did quite well, but I was pants despite having quite a good partner in my first dance Don't think it was too much of nightmare to organise - just in case you were going to get involved in running a DWAS.

    M

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    Re: DWAS Judging

    It should be quite easy to organise. When you come to repair the couples simply get them to line up in two rows, move either leaders or followers on by x places, and pair up.....just like you probably would have done at the start. Repeat as required. If you have judges lookin at leaders, at followers and at couples you can get a good idea of who is best. Seems much better to me than having a fixed partner the whole time....

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    Re: DWAS Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin
    You then also need to think about whether you judge the couples on the man basis, woman basis or both.
    ? Why - you have a lead winner and a follower winner: they may not have even danced together in the whole competition.

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