Ladies' sabotage advice

[Lory]

There's a big difference between saying what sort of body you *do* like to dance with and complaining about the ones that you don't. And there's a big difference between making a private judgement about what you find unattractive and giving a slagging for it in a public place.

There's also a bit difference between 'really' meaning it and having a little friendly, tongue in cheek banter too!

[RogerR]

OK can anyone explain why the "Comb" frequently ends with the girl drawing her finger down my chest?

[Tessalicious]

OK can anyone explain why the "Comb" frequently ends with the girl drawing her finger down my chest?

I don't think I've ever heard a guy complaining about that one before...

[RogerR]

Just follow it with a ladies comb and watch the face!!!

[Cruella]

OK can anyone explain why the "Comb" frequently ends with the girl drawing her finger down my chest?

I guess she's trying to remove the sweat from your neck which is now on her hand on to your T shirt!!

[bigdjiver]

I think some people will feel distressed to see their physique and personal characteristics discussed in derogatory terms. They will feel uncomfortable to think that they are in an environment where they may be being viewed in that manner.

I try to share the dances around so that everybody gets a turn, trying not to assume why that is the case. I have danced with several rather large ladies who have turned out to have been dance trained, and put my interpretation skills to shame, and I now trust to respect my favourite tracks, and many others who have a tremendous sense of fun. As for beauty always attracting offers, I have seen what I consider the most beautiful and best dressed woman in the room being neglected. I still do not know for sure why that was, she was a good dancer. I can only speculate that she looked too good to touch.

[David Bailey]

The worst move for me though is the Train I can't bear it - its so naff, as soon as the guy leads it and walks forward, I'm shuffling behind thinking please don't turn round and make me do a stupid walk thankfully this move is a lot easier to sabotage!!

For me, this is one of the great paradoxes of Ceroc. On the one hand, I hear women lament how the guys are so controlling, and they never have any "play time". On the other hand, I hear women lament moves such as the train, which are basically one big excuse to play. Something's not right there.

Last I checked, nobody can make you do a stupid walk.

I do occasionally go into a train-like maneuver, it's a great chance to do shines / other footwork in a non-standard way. What the lady does at this point is up to her.

The train also provides a great position for all sorts of back-leading, duck-turns, reverse crucifix wiggling and other merriment. As with a lot of these moves, it's all in the way you do it, and what you do to exit it. Plus, "Me Lead, You Jane".

So, long live the train!

[Lou]

I think some people will feel distressed to see their physique and personal characteristics discussed in derogatory terms. They will feel uncomfortable to think that they are in an environment where they may be being viewed in that manner.

Uhuh. So that's why you're joining in?

I have danced with several rather large ladies who have turned out to have been dance trained, and put my interpretation skills to shame, and I now trust to respect my favourite tracks,

So - you're saying you were surprised to discover that larger ladies should be able to dance well and interpret music? Why is that? What do you think their feelings would be if they were to discover that you'd pigeonholed them so?

Oh - I hate Monday mornings....

[David Bailey]

So - you're saying you were surprised to discover that larger ladies should be able to dance well and interpret music? Why is that?

Well, I have some sympathy with bjdiver...

As a wee chap, there are certain physical constraints on what I can and can't do, and I do have to consider height / weight ratios when dancing with a partner - physical force requirements, momentum, and so on.

To some extent, these constraints apply even when dancing with a superb dancer, who's very light on their feet - for example, I can't do very good seducer-type of moves with someone who's not as light or lighter than me. So as a generalisation, I can't do as much, as stylishly, with a taller / heavier partner, as I can with someone who's smaller and lighter. There's no aesthetics or judgementalism, just practicalities.

That doesn't mean I'm dogmatic, and I can think of lots of larger (in both senses!) ladies who are a delight to dance with. But if I didn't know the person, and hadn't seen them dance, then yes, size matters

[Bex]

P.S. to what Martin has written. You let go guys, ladies, it's your chance to play.

Yeah, but can we play to a better move than a Train?? Pleeeease!

[El Salsero Gringo]

So - you're saying you were surprised to discover that larger ladies should be able to dance well and interpret music? Why is that? What do you think their feelings would be if they were to discover that you'd pigeonholed them so?

... and aren't the fat people lucky to have mates like us to tell them how they should feel?

[Lou]

But if I didn't know the person, and hadn't seen them dance, then yes, size matters

Will have to make a point of ensuring I only dance with big men, then.

[Clive Long]

Uhuh. So that's why you're joining in?


So - you're saying you were surprised to discover that larger ladies should be able to dance well and interpret music? Why is that? What do you think their feelings would be if they were to discover that you'd pigeonholed them so?

Oh - I hate Monday mornings....

Sorry, I think you are being unfair on bigdjiver.

My reading of what he wrote was he was challenging and disagreeing with the views and values of others - he had to point out those values to disagree with them, surely !!!

He was being honest about the variations in people but certainly not pigeonholing people.

Dang, you made me break my no-posts-today vow !!!

Clive

[Lou]

Sorry, I think you are being unfair on bigdjiver.

My reading of what he wrote was he was challenging and disagreeing with the views and values of others - he had to point out those values to disagree with them, surely !!

I don't think I was unfair.

I just think it's hugely ironic that he showed exactly the same prejudices that he was arguing against in his post. I think it also illustrates rather well ESG's original objections to Lory's post, in that society is used to men making comments about women's appearance - yet it's still somewhat less acceptable for women to comment on men.

The sooner we all come to realise that we're all people, faults & all, the better.

[Cruella]

Well, I have some sympathy with bjdiver...

As a wee chap, there are certain physical constraints on what I can and can't do, and I do have to consider height / weight ratios when dancing with a partner - physical force requirements, momentum, and so on.


That doesn't mean I'm dogmatic, and I can think of lots of larger (in both senses!) ladies who are a delight to dance with. But if I didn't know the person, and hadn't seen them dance, then yes, size matters

So if you hadn't seen the 'larger' lady dance would you avoid asking her or would you ask and use moves you feel appropriate? The reason i ask is although i have been dancing for 8 years, in the last 2 i have lost 4 stone. This has made a huge difference to how many men ask me to dance. Can't help thinking that most (not all) men will be inclined to ask the slimmer younger or prettier lady to dance. Maybe not just for the attractiveness reasons but because she looks more like 'a dancer'. An example of this for me is when i was on a dance week with approx 200 dancers ( so wouldn't exactly get lost amongst the throng of people) a certain very well known teacher seemed to avoid dancing with me for the whole week. Two stone lighter this same teacher was extremely eager to dance with me and i gave him a bit of a shock when i explained that i was that same lady.

[David Bailey]

So if you hadn't seen the 'larger' lady dance would you avoid asking her or would you ask and use moves you feel appropriate?

If I danced with her, as with all partners, I'd try to use an appropriate set of moves - that set would depend on a number of factors, including:
- My judgement of her ability
- My judgement of her style
- Other non-verbal cues / feedback
- and, yes, any physical constraints.

A classic example of this judgement with regards to physical constraints would be the striaghtjacket move - it only makes sense as a move if I can get my titchy arms wrapped around the lady, otherwise it looks silly (or, sillier ). So I'd avoid that move in those cases, simply because I couldn't do it justice.

The reason i ask is although i have been dancing for 8 years, in the last 2 i have lost 4 stone. This has made a huge difference to how many men ask me to dance. Can't help thinking that most (not all) men will be inclined to ask the slimmer younger or prettier lady to dance. Maybe not just for the attractiveness reasons but because she looks more like 'a dancer'.

That's possible - I'd like to give us men a bit of credit, but we are shallow visually-oriented buggers most of the time. Comes with being a hunter, apparently

I'd like to think most experienced dancers would make judgements mainly on how good a dance they expect to get. But in the end, you have to judge and choose your partners somehow, unless you just work your way along a line .

And, I'd like to point out, this conversation was started by a woman posting about a man's physique...

P.S. Wish I could lose weight dancing - maybe the post-dance smoothie rush isn't helping there

[Gadget]

But if I didn't know the person, and hadn't seen them dance, then yes, size matters

I used to think so, * but I've danced with much smaller ladies and can still do combs, duck-under moves and all the rest. What made me realise that it was probably not the move or the lady; more likely to be my movements and my lead, was seeing a 6ft4 lead (built like a rugby player) lead a 4ft2 lady smoothly into and out of tunnels.
If he could do it, why couldn't I?

Admittedly, I may subtly change my moves for 'broader' ladies: If they can't put their hands on opposing hips, my arms are only so long. But I change my moves depending many other factors as well - the lady's size/shape is only one of them.

Normally I have found larger ladies to be more aware of their balance and quite light on their feet. I have found a lot of diminutive ladies start out very heavy handed and taking larger steps. :shrug:



{* I'm tall, I've seldom danced with ladies taller than me: it may be different for smaller men with larger ladies - I would think some moves are almost imposable if the lady is so much taller than the man.}

[Sheepman]

in the last 2 i have lost 4 stone. This has made a huge difference to how many men ask me to dance.

I had to do a double take when I read this, and think back several years to when we first danced.

This is one of those topics (and of course well off thread now) where it's probably safer to say nothing, someone is bound to get upset, but that doesn't always stop me. Yes, my first impression was probably that you were a large lady, my second impression (and far more important) was how much you enjoyed dancing, and how much fun you are to dance with. That impression is the one that is far more lasting. (And it adds to the impression of what an attraactive lady you are... )

In recent years I'm probably more guilty than many of dancing mostly with friends and acquiantances who I know are great fun to dance with, and not getting around enough dancing with strangers. Maybe that's a consequence of just knowing so many more dancers. (And perhaps due to lots of competition practicing.) When I do dance with strangers, there is still often that sheer delight in finding someone where it all seems to work straight from the start.

But let's face it, given a "free" choice when dancing with strangers, where we have no idea how they dance, surely anyone would prefer to dance with the person that they find most attractive? (And we've already done the "what first attracts you" stuff elsewhere.) But we're affected by issues of self esteem, and what is the right thing to do.

I think there is another question of self esteem, especially as women are so scary, and that is, if I perceive someone as being "so far up themselves" because of the way they look, then I'm very unlikely to ask them to dance. If they have such a high opinion of themselves, then I am hardly likely to be able to measure up to their requirements! (I should point out that although this is something I've come across on the MJ scene, it has been many years since I've been aware of an instance.)
Of course there is a contradiction here, because in being a good dancer, part of that is about striking poses and saying "look at me." But I don't think that's the same as the look which says "you're not worthy to cast your eyes upon me."

OK, now I've probably managed to insult anyone who's not "average," time to take cover...

But as a small sop to getting back on thread, the one lady who does the most blatant hijacking of moves with me, can be fun to dance with. The only problem is, she struggles to stay with the beat and be light on her feet, being the largest lady I know on the MJ scene! (And a non forumite .)

Greg

[bigdjiver]

...So - you're saying you were surprised to discover that larger ladies should be able to dance well and interpret music? Why is that? What do you think their feelings would be if they were to discover that you'd pigeonholed them so?...(

I deliberately spend part of my evening looking for ladies have spent a lot of time sitting out. I am surprised if I find that any of them are actually very good dancers. That has included what I considered the most beautiful and best dressed lady in the room. She was pure delight. I have been surprised that I have only found one, out of thousands, that suffered from odour problems, and only a very few were yankers, or beyond my abilities to lead.
I had pre-conceptions of what a ballet dancer, or even an ex-ballet dancer, would look like. I am also well aware that I am probably not up to their standards as a lead. I try.

[bigdjiver]

I don't think I was unfair.

I do.

I just think it's hugely ironic that he showed exactly the same prejudices that he was arguing against in his post. I think it also illustrates rather well ESG's original objections to Lory's post, in that society is used to men making comments about women's appearance - yet it's still somewhat less acceptable for women to comment on men.

One of my heros of dance is a guy on the 98 champs video who is generously built but floats through the air with style, charm and a superb smile. I am never going to attain that standard.

What I was trying to say was that I am surprised if any lady that has spent most of the evening sitting out turns out to a very good dancer. I was hoping to persuade more guys to give everybody a chance.

The sooner we all come to realise that we're all people, faults & all, the better.