View Poll Results: Would tests in Ceroc be useful?

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  • Tests are the best thing since sliced bread, and should help move MJ standards forward.

    1 2.50%
  • Tests are a Good Idea, and should be mandatory when moving up a class

    10 25.00%
  • Tests might be useful, but should be optional

    17 42.50%
  • Tests are bad – they introduce too much competition into MJ

    4 10.00%
  • Tests are Eeevil, and should never ever be considered in MJ

    8 20.00%
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Thread: Tests for Ceroc?

  1. #61
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    Can you send me my blue card as soon as possible please ?
    Think a much better solution is that you come visit and collect it yourself

  2. #62
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary
    Are there no UK companies which do?
    Ceroc used to. In the dim and distant past, you had to show that you knew the 9 basic moves before doing an intermediate class. James & Janie both used to enforce this.

  3. #63
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    I guess that could be a problem for one of several reasons:
    Some counter arguments...
    1) A dancer moves up too soon, has trouble, gets discouraged and leaves.
    - A dancer moves up quickly, has trouble, gets determined to get it right and is hooked.
    - A dancer moves up quickly, has trouble, drops back to beginner for a while before trying it again.
    - A dancer moves up quickly, dosn't have too much trouble.

    2) A dancer moves up too soon, so she doesn't learn as quickly as she would if she spent more time in consolidation/review/progression/whatever
    - A dancer moves up quickly, dosn't learn as quick in classes but has more fun, dances with better dancers, and is introduced to better dancers that they will dance with in freestyle.
    - A dancer moves up quickly, dosn't learn the basics as quick, but once learned picks up the more 'advanced' stuff quicker than most due to exposure.
    - A dancer moves up quickly and learns quicker.

    3) A dancer moves up too soon, and she hinders the learning of other dancers
    - A dancer moves up quickly, and the other dancers have to learn how to execute moves properly using lead/follow rather than copy/paste.
    - A dancer moves up quickly and helps other dancers learn where/how the move can go wrong.

    4) A dancer moves up too soon, and she{they} injures other dancers (or aggravates their existing injuries).
    - The new dancer realises their potential to cause harm and from then on become a very considerate and protective dancer.
    - A dancer with an existing injury helps the newer dancer lead/follow in a more gentle manor.

    If you had to pick one of these reasons as the single most compelling argument for tests, whether compulsorary or optional, which would you choose?
    These are reasons for having tests? Why not have a test to see if the dancer can perform every beginner move accuratly? Test to see if a lady anticipates? A leader is clear in their lead? If they can dance to the music? ... wait a second... what exactly do "advanced" workshops and concepts cover again... Oh yea

  4. #64
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Some counter arguments...
    A dancer moves up quickly, has trouble, drops back to beginner for a while before trying it again.
    how many people do you know would voluntarily demote themselves??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget[i
    4) A dancer moves up too soon, and she{they} injures other dancers (or aggravates their existing injuries).[/i]
    - The new dancer realises their potential to cause harm and from then on become a very considerate and protective dancer.
    - A dancer with an existing injury helps the newer dancer lead/follow in a more gentle manor.
    or causes permenant damage to another dancer.

    Gadget all your responses required students in the class to do assume a "semi teacher" role - when I pay for a class I don't mind being helpful but I would object to being forced in to that sort of role - I have paid for the class I am there to to learn - if I wanted to be teaching i would be teaching.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    These are reasons for having tests? Why not have a test to see if the dancer can perform every beginner move accuratly? Test to see if a lady anticipates? A leader is clear in their lead? If they can dance to the music? ... wait a second... what exactly do "advanced" workshops and concepts cover again... Oh yea
    Well we introduce our beginners to the basics of these concepts from day one - especially in consolidation classes and a basic (very basic) grasp of these concepts is assumed by our teachers in an intermediate class
    Last edited by Yliander; 10th-May-2005 at 11:11 AM.

  5. #65
    Commercial Operator Swinging bee's Avatar
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    All this hot air is contributing to global warming...Hey dancing is supposed to be fun...

  6. #66
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Some counter arguments...

    3) A dancer moves up too soon, and she hinders the learning of other dancers
    - A dancer moves up quickly, and the other dancers have to learn how to execute moves properly using lead/follow rather than copy/paste.
    - A dancer moves up quickly and helps other dancers learn where/how the move can go wrong.
    As a general principle, I don't believe good dancers learn as much from dancing with bad dancers as vice versa. (ie bad dancers learn more from dancing with good dancers). So whilst dancing with beginners is a Good Thing generally, it's more because this helps to teaches them, not you. Gross simplification, but that seems logical to me.

    Also, if a dancer has significant problems in a class, this causes problems for everyone he / she dances with in that class. So there's a detrimental impact, not just on that dancer, but on much of the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    4) A dancer moves up too soon, and she{they} injures other dancers (or aggravates their existing injuries).
    - The new dancer realises their potential to cause harm and from then on become a very considerate and protective dancer.
    - A dancer with an existing injury helps the newer dancer lead/follow in a more gentle manor.
    Yes, but the injuries have been done - so that's not much consolation for the injured parties. Again, better not to do the injuries in the first place.

    Example: I did a class last night with a yo-yo catapult, which involved some arm-twisting (my arm) and tension. I've got a bad shoulder, and so was trying to get away with as little tension as possible, but a couple of my partners, who perhaps shouldn't have been in that class, insisted on yanking it backwards a little. I don't think it's aggravated the problem, but it easily could have. A "First do no harm" assessment would maybe have helped here, and I could have lived without the chance of sacrificing my health to teach someone how not to do it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    what exactly do "advanced" workshops and concepts cover again... Oh yea
    Some people (e.g. me) have family or other commitments which mean they can't easily find time for workshops - they're not something we should assume everyone can and should do. This stuff should be catered to within the class structure, I believe.

  7. #67
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swinging bee
    All this hot air is contributing to global warming...Hey dancing is supposed to be fun...
    If people keep on being gratuitously reasonable at me, I'm going to get very annoyed.

  8. #68
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Some people (e.g. me) have family or other commitments which mean they can't easily find time for workshops - they're not something we should assume everyone can and should do. This stuff should be catered to within the class structure, I believe.
    One respected member of the MJ community was recently trying to persuade me that Ceroc deliberately don't teach any technique in classes so they can sell you workshops as well. I spent a lot of energy trying to persuade him that no one in an organisation dedicated to teaching could possibly be that underhand.

  9. #69
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Some counter arguments...
    3) A dancer moves up too soon, and she hinders the learning of other dancers
    - A dancer moves up quickly, and the other dancers have to learn how to execute moves properly using lead/follow rather than copy/paste.
    - A dancer moves up quickly and helps other dancers learn where/how the move can go wrong.
    But if, for example, the dancer has no frame and the move requires one, what do you do? Putting aside that it's not my direct responsibility, and that I really don't like giving unsolicited advice, the middle of the class is a very poor place to teach something tangential to the main class. (There's not enough time, it's very confusing doing something different from the people around you, you have to try to talk over the teacher, etc...).

    4) A dancer moves up too soon, and she{they} injures other dancers (or aggravates their existing injuries).
    - The new dancer realises their potential to cause harm and from then on become a very considerate and protective dancer.
    The question is at what point the risk of injuries becomes prohibitive. As far as I'm concerned, at some point, you have to draw a line, and you have to say "you need to be able to do X,Y,Z competently to do this class, and I need some evidence this is the case". I think there are valid arguments about where that line is, (and it might be all the current intermediate classes fall below that line), but you don't seem to want a line at all.

  10. #70
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    how many people do you know would voluntarily demote themselves??
    I have known lots of people who have tried the intermediate and found it beyond them, and either given up the intermediate class for a while, or just given up MJ.

    Gadget all your responses required students in the class to do assume a "semi teacher" role - when I pay for a class I don't mind being helpful but I would object to being forced in to that sort of role - I have paid for the class I am there to to learn -
    Who is "forcing" you?

    You may have managed to learn every move and principle from teacher, but people like me still need the occasional bit of help from partner even after years of classes. The general helping one another ethos is one of the things I love about MJ.

    It has just occurred to me that there was plenty of partner help going on last night whilst the trainee teacher was floundering. I reported that he suddenly raised his game, and was fine from then on. Just perhaps it was because he saw that the class was actually getting the routine, beginners included, and he got the confidence from that success.

  11. #71
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    Think a much better solution is that you come visit and collect it yourself
    Ok, Ill look up flights to Perth later

  12. #72
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    In the UK, nothing particularly worthwhile is taught in intermediate Ceroc classes. As Gus reminded us a little while ago, Ceroc teachers are "there to teach FUN!", rather than anything related to dancing well. Accordingly, I am not worried about beginners disrupting the learning of more advanced dancers, as I don't figure they learn very much anyway.

    Some intermediate Ceroc classes "teach" dips and drops, and I can see that there's an element of risk in doing those with people, such as myself, who have never been taught basic technique for dips and drops. However, basic technique for dips and drops is taught in neither beginner Ceroc classes, nor beginner review/progression/consolidation/review classes. Accordingly, I don't see that testing would offer any benefits here.

    The other possibility is poor technique aggravating existing injuries - such as a woman who unknowingly takes ugly back steps and yanks her partner's arm. I suppose this gets fixed in the end by feedback from taxi dancers and/or obstreperous intermediates. So a test could help here, by providing that feedback in a more controlled way.

    There is an argument that people hinder their own learning by moving up too quickly, as they lack the benefit of doing the review classes. I would be more convinced by this if I had been to review classes that taught things not taught in either beginner or intermediate classes. I would be more convinced by this if I saw advanced dancers going back to review classes to brush up on whatever things are taught there.

    It sounds like things are different in Australia, from what Yliander says, so I can certainly see that tests are a useful tool in her situation. For UK MJ teachers who feel that they teach something more substantial than "FUN!" in their classes, I can see the benefit in introducing similar tests.

  13. #73
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    how many people do you know would voluntarily demote themselves??
    I would. If I was there, thinking I could handle it, and then discovered I couldn't - I would drop back down. But I doubt I would be there in the first place unless acting on another person's advice.

    or causes permenant damage to another dancer.
    ? Any move that has the potential to cause permenant damage would be highlighted from stage. Or am I placing too much trust in teachers? If there is this potential (not highlighted by a teacher) in an "intermediate" level, then there is the same potential at the "beginner" level. Or are intermediate dancers more susceptible?
    If the potential is highlighted, then who is to blame for the pupil not listening? Inexperiance of the class is no excuse - doubtless there would be many within the class who have not performed the move. Any potential for injury should be highlighted to your partner as well - "I've got a sore XXX, so I'm not going to perform the move as it is done from stage" should prevent your partner from trying to force you into the move.

    Gadget all your responses required students in the class to do assume a "semi teacher" role - when I pay for a class I don't mind being helpful but I would object to being forced in to that sort of role - I have paid for the class I am there to to learn - if I wanted to be teaching i would be teaching.
    ? Not really - it involves the students being willing to learn from each other rather than just the teacher. I don't ask how I can lead a move better: I feel it. I don't ask how that particular styling thing is done: I watch it. Learning should be an active role for the pupil; not a passive one.
    If you feel that your partner requires additional tutorage, point them in the direction of a taxi/teacher. They want to learn from the teacher as well (they are in the class) why assume that they want to learn from you? Dosn't stop you learning from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    As a general principle, I don't believe good dancers learn as much from dancing with bad dancers as vice versa. (ie bad dancers learn more from dancing with good dancers). So whilst dancing with beginners is a Good Thing generally, it's more because this helps to teaches them, not you. Gross simplification, but that seems logical to me.
    Depends on what you want to learn. Personally, I think I have learned more from dancing with beginners and "difficult" dancers than from anything I have been taught from stage. They teach me how to lead rather than the actions to make in order to perform a move. I don't think I have learned much from dancing with really good dancers other than how much fun you can have with musical interpritation.

    Also, if a dancer has significant problems in a class, this causes problems for everyone he / she dances with in that class. So there's a detrimental impact, not just on that dancer, but on much of the class.
    ? And this is isolated to intermediate classes? If a dancer has "significant problems", then the teacher should note it from stage and seek them out. As to affecting the whole class: that's why we rotate - and you now have a good example of how not to do a move.

    Example: I did a class last night with a yo-yo catapult, which involved some arm-twisting (my arm) and tension. ~ A "First do no harm" assessment would maybe have helped here, and I could have lived without the chance of sacrificing my health to teach someone how not to do it...
    Curious: on the "yo-yo" part, was your palm away from your partner? Try changing it to face towards the floor with a fractionally bent arm. I don't know why, but for me it puts less pressure on the shoulder. On the 'lean' part of the cattapult, actually bend at the waist so that your arms are not going back so much fromyour shoulders (use one leg to match the angle of the bend behind you so you're not "sticking your bum out") And again on the pull-through and release I find that the palm to the floor helps.
    How did I find this out? Dancing with beginners.

    Some people (e.g. me) have family or other commitments which mean they can't easily find time for workshops - they're not something we should assume everyone can and should do. This stuff should be catered to within the class structure, I believe
    Commitments! Don't talk to me about commitments! {} I think that a lot of it is covered in classes - you just have to watch for it and make the most of any workshops you can attend. I would love to go to classes three or four nights a week, partys and workshops every weekend, weekenders and dance holidays every month... but reality is that family and finances only allow toe to be dipped in now & again.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    But if, for example, the dancer has no frame and the move requires one, what do you do?
    You compensate. What is a 'frame'? It's just a fancy name for a connection that uses more than just your hands. What do you do when a dancer dosn't respond to your connection? Make it clearer and firmer. You shouldn't have to teach over the teacher; two or three words should be enough to get the connection eg "give me some resistance"

    The question is at what point the risk of injuries becomes prohibitive. As far as I'm concerned, at some point, you have to draw a line, and you have to say "you need to be able to do X,Y,Z competently to do this class, and I need some evidence this is the case". I think there are valid arguments about where that line is, (and it might be all the current intermediate classes fall below that line), but you don't seem to want a line at all.
    In a class: no: no line. I don't think that anything should be taught in a standard class that has a potential to severely injure your partner. If there is risk of injury, then I trust the teacher to say so and give a safety speil - new intermediates should be able to do the move as safely as advanced dancers. (With alternatives taught for those who don't want to perform the move.)
    In a workshop enviroment it's completley different and should be screened as necissary.

  14. #74
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    Ok, Ill look up flights to Perth later
    Look forward to it!!

  15. #75
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Any potential for injury should be highlighted to your partner as well - "I've got a sore XXX, so I'm not going to perform the move as it is done from stage" should prevent your partner from trying to force you into the move.
    There was nothing wrong with the move - it was the yanking back-of-my-arm mistakes made by a couple of people who caused me concern. But the move itself was fine - although I'll try your suggestion in future if it comes up, thanks for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    ? And this is isolated to intermediate classes? If a dancer has "significant problems", then the teacher should note it from stage and seek them out.
    Good grief, there were 120+ people, in 4 rows, in the class last night - to expect a teacher to make note of any particular problems, for any particular person, whilst teaching and managing a class is, shall we say, a little optimistic. Especially because the problems may not be obvious. The best you could hope for is noticing if several people are making the same mistake, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    As to affecting the whole class: that's why we rotate
    What, so lots of people are miserable instead of one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    and you now have a good example of how not to do a move.
    Assuming you know how to do it in the first place, of course - otherwise it'll just add to the confusion if some people do it one way and some another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    new intermediates should be able to do the move as safely as advanced dancers.
    Assuming they all know the basics - which we can't assume without testing them.... Hey, we're back to the start! Do I get a bonue point for being on-topic?

  16. #76
    Commercial Operator Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Noting with great interest that both Gadget and Martin Harper refer in their post to the "dancer who moves up and cannot manage the moves" as a "she".
    So what exactly does that say about them !!!!!!!
    Oh, sorry, I forgot, men are perfect!!!!!


    Heather
    xx
    I suggest using the pronoun " they" or " them", thereby offending no-one!!!
    Anyway we're always told in Ceroc that " it's the MAN's fault !"

  17. #77
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather
    Noting with great interest that both Gadget and Martin Harper refer in their post to the "dancer who moves up and cannot manage the moves" as a "she".
    So what exactly does that say about them !!!!!!!
    That they're, err, men? And writing from a man's (leader's) perspective. As indeed am I.

    OK, they should be a little more careful, but I think most people would assume the wider group, I certainly don't think there's any follower-bashing going on. But then, I'm a leader...

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather
    Anyway we're always told in Ceroc that " it's the MAN's fault !"
    Yes, that phrase was No. 1 in my Top 10 smokescreens thread a few weeks ago. I wouldn't support such a statement as definitive, in other words...

  18. #78
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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    In the UK, nothing particularly worthwhile is taught in intermediate Ceroc classes.
    Whoaaaa there dobbin, that's a bit of an extreme statement.

    I can get some worth from most intermediate classes. But it's rarely as simple as "Oh look, new move, that's fun!", it's usually more like "Ah, that handhold / lead's got interesting possibilities for leading into my patented XYZ move". In other words, I have to think about it. Which is a good thing.

    I'd agree that, for reasons I touch on elsewhere and other places, intermediate classes aren't as good as they could be, but they're not worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    As Gus reminded us a little while ago, Ceroc teachers are "there to teach FUN!"
    I remember. I also remember asking how you can teach FUN. 'Coz I'd like to learn

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    The other possibility is poor technique aggravating existing injuries - such as a woman who unknowingly takes ugly back steps and yanks her partner's arm.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    There is an argument that people hinder their own learning by moving up too quickly, as they lack the benefit of doing the review classes. I would be more convinced by this if I had been to review classes that taught things not taught in either beginner or intermediate classes. I would be more convinced by this if I saw advanced dancers going back to review classes to brush up on whatever things are taught there.
    Possibly we're confusing UK consolidation classes (for novice beginners) with Australian review classes (for advanced beginners). So effectively, we already have acknowledged 4 levels of dancer with these 4 types of class:
    1. Novice beginners: do the beginners class and (in UK) consolidation class
    2. Beginners: do the beginners class, may do (in UK) consolidation class
    3. Advanced beginners: may do the beginners class, (in Oz) do review class
    4. Intermediates: do the intermediates class (everywhere!)

    This thread seems mainly to be talking about "Stage 3" dancers, I think.

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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Possibly we're confusing UK consolidation classes (for novice beginners) with Australian review classes (for advanced beginners). So effectively, we already have acknowledged 4 levels of dancer with these 4 types of class:
    1. Novice beginners: do the beginners class and (in UK) consolidation class
    2. Beginners: do the beginners class, may do (in UK) consolidation class
    3. Advanced beginners: may do the beginners class, (in Oz) do review class
    4. Intermediates: do the intermediates class (everywhere!)

    This thread seems mainly to be talking about "Stage 3" dancers, I think.
    Actually in Asutralia levels 1 & 2 would also do a consolidation/review class

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    Re: Tests for Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    There was nothing wrong with the move - it was the yanking back-of-my-arm mistakes made by a couple of people who caused me concern.
    I'm asking myself why this would happen, and can come to it being one of three things: the lady is ignoring your lead or your lead is not controlled throught the whole of the move or the timing between you and your partner is off. Each of these can be addressed in your actions.

    {spotting one 'bad' dancer} Good grief, there were 120+ people, in 4 rows, in the class last night - to expect a teacher to make note of any particular problems, for any particular person, whilst teaching and managing a class is, shall we say, a little optimistic. Especially because the problems may not be obvious. The best you could hope for is noticing if several people are making the same mistake, I think.
    If everyone else is doing one thing, and one person doing another, you don't think they will stand out? I would say that it would be harder to spot lots of people going wrong than only a couple.

    {and you now have a good example of how not to do a move.} Assuming they all know the basics - which we can't assume without testing them.
    Do you need to know how to do something right to know that it's wrong? The hardest part is identifying why it's wrong - not that it's wrong in the first place, and that's all a test will show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather
    Noting with great interest that both Gadget and Martin Harper refer in their post to the "dancer who moves up and cannot manage the moves" as a "she".
    Hey I was just quoting - I noticed and added in the {they} as opposed to "she" - I think that the lead has a lot more potential to damage than the follower.


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I can get some worth from most intermediate classes.
    Depends on whether you are an active student that seeks knowledge, or a passive student that just wants knowledge thrust at them. I get something out of just about every intermediate class, beginner class, dance, and even every rotation. It may be soley to do with that partner, it may be simply not straightening my arm or a subtle shift of weight at a specific point in a move... I'm a "Why" and "Whatif" kind of guy.

    I suppose it's the difference between seeking knowledge and seeking understanding - tests tend only to look at knowledge and assume that if the knowledge is there, then the understanding must be. I think that this is one of the main gripes I have with tests. That and you are drawing a line to say red is red and blue is blue, then shoveling 99% of purple people into one or the other.

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