Tests for Ceroc?

[David Bailey]

Following on from Gus's superb Teaching beginners thread, I'd like to grab a snapshot of opinion on whether people think it'd be a good idea to introduce some form of testing into Ceroc (or MJ in general), as part of going from beginner to intermediate (and beyond).

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

Following on from Gus's superb Teaching beginners thread, I'd like to grab a snapshot of opinion on whether people think it'd be a good idea to introduce some form of testing into Ceroc (or MJ in general), as part of going from beginner to intermediate (and beyond).

I think that it is a good idea-but should be optional I personally would like the option of a test as I would then definately know wether I was ready to move up to Intermediate or not, instead of moving up and feeling unsure as to wether or not I should be there

Ashx

[Gus]

The option I really wanted wasn't there. I would like to see dancers vetted before joining 'advanced' classes. It would save a lot of injury and wasted time as well as putting a few egos back to the level they should be at.

[Lou]

And what about cross-organisational dancers? Should each organisation/franchise trust the others, or do their own testing?

[Lynn]

I think to bring in compulsory tests when there has been nothing like that in the past, would be too big a change. It would need to be optional - and judging dancers reactions to it would give some idea if it could ever be brought in as a requirement.

My suggestions/ideas

- Optional 'feedback' available at workshop level from teacher - can be used to judge ability to move up a level (for beginners), and as a way of dancers learning about their own strengths and weaknesses and how to improve (all levels).

- Avoid use of the word 'test' - it implies the possibility of 'failure' - this is a method of measuring progress not an attempt to fail anyone. It could be called 'assessment' instead - assessing a persons level/ability.

- Something more structured might be helpful at a more 'advanced intermediate' level - eg people have to achieve a certain standard in one workshop before they are allowed to progress to the next level of workshops - this would prevent people moving up too quickly.

[David Bailey]

The option I really wanted wasn't there. I would like to see dancers vetted before joining 'advanced' classes. It would save a lot of injury and wasted time as well as putting a few egos back to the level they should be at.

Yes, I considered the "multi-level" options, but wanted to keep it simple; that would probably lead to a discussion of how many levels we should have etc., which whilst valid, isn't really the point...

Besides, then someone might tell me for sure I'm crap, rather than just hinting

[El Salsero Gringo]

- Avoid use of the word 'test' - it implies the possibility of 'failure' - this is a method of measuring progress not an attempt to fail anyone. It could be called 'assessment' instead - assessing a persons level/ability.

I don't think anyone would fall for that.

[Baruch]

I don't think anyone would fall for that.

As a teacher, I disagree with you. You only have to look at the reactions of children (which are ingrained in all of us, as we were all children once). Of course, assessment is necessary in schools. Tell the children they're having a test, and they get uptight about it, worry about it and start (in some cases) to worry about failing it. Tell them they're being assessed and they're much more relaxed about it, even though they can see it's pretty much the same tasks they're being asked to do in either case.

It's all in the terminology: "test" implies pass or fail, whereas "assessment" implies finding out where you are in order to move you on, ability-wise.

[El Salsero Gringo]

As a teacher, I disagree with you. You only have to look at the reactions of children (which are ingrained in all of us, as we were all children once). Of course, assessment is necessary in schools. Tell the children they're having a test, and they get uptight about it, worry about it and start (in some cases) to worry about failing it. Tell them they're being assessed and they're much more relaxed about it, even though they can see it's pretty much the same tasks they're being asked to do in either case.

It's all in the terminology: "test" implies pass or fail, whereas "assessment" implies finding out where you are in order to move you on, ability-wise.

We aren't talking about children - we're talking about intelligent, and cynical, adults who know well enough that when their 'assessment' indicates that they aren't yet suitable to attend an intermediate class - that means they've failed.

[Baruch]

We aren't talking about children - we're talking about intelligent, and cynical, adults who know well enough that when their 'assessment' indicates that they aren't yet suitable to attend an intermediate class - that means they've failed.

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that children and adults aren't all that different, in many ways.

I've come across many intelligent and cynical children as well as adults.

It all depends on how much emphasis is put on assessment and how it is used. If you play up the "pass or fail" aspect then it could easily put people off, yes. On the other hand, if it's used for more than just deciding if someone's ready to move up a level, then it's less threatening. You could potentially ask the teacher to assess you for all sorts of things: style, ability to execute moves, leading or following ability, musical interpretation and probably plenty of other things.

Even if you go down the road of only using assessment to decide whether someone is ready to move up from beginners to intermediates, or intermediate to advanced, if it is non-compulsory then the pass-or-fail aspect, that of either moving up or not, is taken out of the equation. You can choose to ignore the teacher's assessment if you want, though of course that would usually be unwise.

Non-compulsory assessment would indicate whether or not you should move up, as opposed to whether you may move up, which is what a compulsory test tells you. There is a big difference.

[dance cat]

i don't see the problem with being told in a test or an assessment where you are going wrong or if you have met the standard.In my local Salsa classes the teacher tells you whether you will cope with the next level and there is no feeling of being a huge failure. they also tell you what you need to work on to be able to move up and this is then picked up in future lessons. i always ask more experienced dancers if i've done something wrong and welcome feedback. i wouldn't have a problem with doing a test along the lines of dancing with the teacher. however in my area of the country very few teachers, with the exception of Gus and Dazzle seem to dance with the masses. i think they could learn from Nigel. i was impressed by the fact that he made a point of dancing with everyone in the room after he had taught the lesson at hipsters. i'm sorry to say that i don't know if this is regular practice in London as i've only managed the trip down once but i think this would drastically improve the quality of dance that the more experienced dancers seem to think needs remedying.

[Dazzle]

Swap test for assessment and I think most would be happier. Where venues have beginners' revision classes or another room during intrmediate classes this will work, i.e., people continue with those. But if not, can we say to people that they cannot do the intermediate class and must sit and watch?

Dance Cat thanks for the acknowledgement that I DO try to get around all levels of dancer in the class during freestyle. My comments under the Are We Teaching Beginners Properly thread do not deter me from doing my job/best to help dancers get better.

Assessment should be optional, as long as people accept that they will not progress the same way. This happens in oh so many other fields of endeavour.

Would this asessment call into question the age-old idea of a central MJ organisation to oversee standards across all club types?

[David Bailey]

I have no problem with a label of "assessment" - if it will encourage people to do it, I don't care if it's called "elephant". Or "DavidJames Exercise"

I personally also feel that a simple "pass / fail" would be less helpful than a full-on review, which should aim to point out good areas and development areas (note the avoidance of the phrase "bad areas" - I've learnt from the "c**p teachers" thread ).

However, in practical terms, organising individual reviews to that degree would be a whole level more difficult than running 3-minute "yes / no" type reviews. I'm basically envisaging UK Ceroc copying best practice from Australia - their system seems to work, although I'd like to know more about the details.

[ducasi]

- Avoid use of the word 'test' - it implies the possibility of 'failure' - this is a method of measuring progress not an attempt to fail anyone. It could be called 'assessment' instead - assessing a persons level/ability.

Tell the children they're having a test, and they get uptight about it, worry about it and start (in some cases) to worry about failing it. Tell them they're being assessed and they're much more relaxed about it, even though they can see it's pretty much the same tasks they're being asked to do in either case.

We aren't talking about children - we're talking about intelligent, and cynical, adults who know well enough that when their 'assessment' indicates that they aren't yet suitable to attend an intermediate class - that means they've failed.

I agree with Lynn and Baruch here, despite being very cynical (and very intelligent, and very modest. NOT! )

I know the difference between a test and an assessment – you can't fail an assessment. You can only not do as well as you hoped.

In my idea of how "grading" or assessing would work, if it were possible, beginners could be assessed every week by a teacher and when the time is right be told "you've made the grade!" If they don't make the grade it'd be because they don't have sufficient experience, or there are beginner-level mistakes still needing correcting. That feedback would help them improve and maybe make the grade the next week.

Of course, they'd be no absolute requirement to be assessed and approved to move up to intermediate.

As you continue improving a continuing assessment would give you something to work towards if you want to improve your dancing. The best place for this sort of assessment would be workshops, or perhaps monthly at classes.

Unfortunately, I don't see my vision being entirely possible – there are too many beginners and (usually) only one teacher. But maybe via workshops some sort of grading could be done.

I guess for the beginners, with suitable training, Taxi Dancers could offer an assessment to each beginner either in the revision class or later during a freestyle, if there was time.

Whatever you call it though, I don't see any aspect of competition – everyone understands that we all started at different times and learn at difference rates. Even without any assessment you can look round the dance-floor and see people both better and worse than yourself. If people are going to be upset by this, whether people do or don't do grading isn't going to change anything.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I know the difference between a test and an assessment – you can't fail an assessment. You can only not do as well as you hoped.

Absolutely right. And anyone attending an assessment billed as an indicator of whether they should be going to intermediate classes will be hoping to have reached that standard. So it's still a pass/fail test.

If the assessment doesn't indicate a yes/no as to whether they've reached that standard it doesn't fulfil the criteria given at the top of the thread.

It's exactly the same (stupid) idea as grading GCSE passes from A to E (so that no-one fails), and then saying that in order to qualify for many jobs or courses you need to achieve grade C in a subject like, say, maths. Everyone knows that if you don't get grade 'C' you've effectively failed.

[ducasi]

Absolutely right. And anyone attending an assessment billed as an indicator of whether they should be going to intermediate classes will be hoping to have reached that standard. So it's still a pass/fail test.

So don't bill it as that. And don't make it something you have to "attend", make it part of the teaching.

I guess it comes down to whether you're entirely OK with beginners potentially moving up too fast which can spoil things for others, or whether you think some guidance might help them.

Me? I'm OK with both, but know which I'd prefer.

[TheTramp]

I know the difference between a test and an assessment – you can't fail an assessment. You can only not do as well as you hoped.

You might want to tell the people at my university that then!

We had mid-term assessments, and a number of people did fail. Thankfully I wasn't one of them, but a number of people were told that they had failed in the assessments.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I guess it comes down to whether you're entirely OK with beginners potentially moving up too fast which can spoil things for others, or whether you think some guidance might help them.:

It comes down to the same old argument as to whether Ceroc in the UK is dedicated to building top quality dancers, or to providing some entertainment for the masses. As things stand we allow people to make up their own minds when they should attend intermediate classes yet we (who are interested in improving) still manage to get better despite the 'drag' of beginners maybe moving up too fast. I don't doubt that a test system would mean that some would learn faster, but I don't doubt either that others would be discouraged, and that overall numbers would go down. I just can't see that you can have one without the other.

I'm off now to a Salsa class, where there are strict standards to be reached before you move up a class, and where the top level 'advanced' class is by invitation of the instructor only. The demographic of those attending is very different from Ceroc - much younger and more 'thrusting' - and the novices drop-out rate is much much higher. I think that may be due to the attitude to "high standards" that pervades this Salsa class and which is noticeably absent from Ceroc.

[ducasi]

You might want to tell the people at my university that then!

We had mid-term assessments, and a number of people did fail. ...

After reading this page I guess what they were doing was a Summative Assessment, and what I'm thinking of is a Formative Assessment.

The word I'd prefer is "grading", though (again, referring to the link above) I hope that would be for educational purposes, not administrative.

Happy to know you passed though.

[David Bailey]

It comes down to the same old argument as to whether Ceroc in the UK is dedicated to building top quality dancers, or to providing some entertainment for the masses.

Depends which brings in more money I guess

I don't doubt that a test system would mean that some would learn faster, but I don't doubt either that others would be discouraged, and that overall numbers would go down. I just can't see that you can have one without the other.

Depends on how many dancers are aspirational vs. recreational - of course, it's never black-and-white, we're all a mix of both. Tests, guidance, feedback and structure appeal more to the aspirational, whereas they may well put the recreational dancer off.

I agree that it could well reduce numbers of recreational dancers. However, it could also increase loyalty of intermediate dancers by promoting dance excellence, possibly offsetting this. Having said that, it's a gamble.

I'm off now to a Salsa class, where there are strict standards to be reached before you move up a class, and where the top level 'advanced' class is by invitation of the instructor only. The demographic of those attending is very different from Ceroc - much younger and more 'thrusting' - and the novices drop-out rate is much much higher. I think that may be due to the attitude to "high standards" that pervades this Salsa class and which is noticeably absent from Ceroc.

Good points, but I doubt that's a typical salsa class structure - you've managed to find a good salsa class (amazing - gold star that man), but most of them have less definition and structure than even a loose Ceroc class. Salsa novice retention rate has always been lower than Ceroc, but I'd guess this is more because the dance itself has a steeper initial learning curve. Similarly, salsa demographics, especially in central London, have always been younger than ceroc.

All that said, as a greedy consumer, I'd always prefer to have 100 good dancers in a room instead of 50 good + 100 not-so-good. But I suspect that may not appeal to the business heads of the relevant organisers...