Beginners ... are we teaching them correctly?

[Lynn]

Actually I suspect that a lot of the time people avoid giving negative feedback to their dance partners, for the sake of politeness. I know that I do, unless I'm asked to do otherwise.

Oh yes, I had specifically asked for feedback and asked to be told what I was doing wrong - it wasn't volunteered and I asked them not to 'be polite'. How else can we improve?

This seems to reinforce Lynn's point, that more structured feedback would be useful for people learning to dance.

And if it was structured it would be from the proper source - from someone who has thought about how to give feedback (as it needs to be handled properly, postive balanced with negative, any negative to be 'constructive' and show how to improve) rather than someone just unhelpfully saying 'you're doing that wrong, let me show you how it should be done' (and there are people who do that!)

[David Bailey]

The idea of being 'tested' in ceroc I think is wrong regardless of the good intensions.

Having initially suggested this, admittedly half in jest, I feel honour-bound to defend it, to the death, sirrah. Or something...

I believe the question could perhaps be phrased as "Do we want to make more of a structure to the 'dance levels' or not?"

If we do, then I believe we must use better differentiators than "must have done 12 classes" (frankly, the only benefit of that metric is that it's easy to measure). Certainly, I could argue that this "12 weeks" is already a "test", so Ceroc is already employing such a system.

For better differentiators, we need better measurements - and testing is a time-honoured way of measuring levels of achievement in all other practices, from academia to martial arts and indeed to many other dance disciplines.

The presence of testing hasn't harmed these areas, why should it do to Modern Jive? It might even encourage more learners to move up, by providing solid evidence of achievement by going up a level...

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big defender of the democracy of the MJ freestyle arena, but I'm talking about learning environments here.

Actually I suspect that a lot of the time people avoid giving negative feedback to their dance partners, for the sake of politeness. I know that I do, unless I'm asked to do otherwise.

This seems to reinforce Lynn's point, that more structured feedback would be useful for people learning to dance.

And I just realised that Lynn's post says what I wanted to, but better... Oh well, I've written it now...

I think the improvers class is a good concept.

Here we agree.

[Yliander]

The idea of being 'tested' in ceroc I think is wrong regardless of the good intensions. I think the improvers class is a good concept.

why do you think being tested in ceroc is wrong?

is gives people the confiedence to partipate in intermediate classes knowing they have the required basic skills to under take it - rather than ending up out of their depth

[bigdjiver]

Standards and tests are appropriate for competitive environments. For me the most important test is already being applied. "Do you get enough out of your evening to make you come back?". I know people that have been coming for a long time that do not do the intermediate class because it is too difficult for them. They are happy enough just to enjoy the atmosphere in the company of their friends. They enjoy a few simple dances, which they perform badly, but, if the lead looks happy, they look happy.

At the other extreme I have known a few ladies that insisted on trying the intermediate on their first night. Of the four ladies that I recall, I never saw three again. The two that had danced before could do it, and one of those is still a regular.

Any test will be an incentive to some, and a distinct deterrent to others. That test culture was one of the things that put me off ballroom.

[ducasi]

As a dancer of just 3 months now and a recent "graduate" from a beginner to a novice intermediate, I either have a valuable contribution to make to this discussion, or none at all as I don't really have the range of experience of different teachers etc. So, feel free to ignore anything I say...

Almost all of my learning has been in Glasgow, taught either by Franck or one of his teachers. As such, there could well be a big variation between my experience and other people's outside Scotland. Or not – I don't know.

So, with all that said...

Yes, beginners are being taught the right things. All the things people say should be taught to beginners, have been taught to me. Maybe not enough for some people, but I think that over-emphasising a lot of the technical stuff will only reduce the fun part of learning, and as Franck said, quite often the people who need to heed what's being taught to them aren't paying attention.

That said, I'm sure the the teaching could be better – everything has room for improvement. Perhaps a "new synthesis of cognitive and dance theory" could help, and I'd be interesting hearing what sort of thing you have in mind here.

The idea of flyers or posters isn't a bad one. Maybe a weekly hand-out with this week's moves on, plus some technical tips? Or how about a booklet (maybe that costs money?) with details of all the beginner moves and guides on technique and "how to be a good dancer"? I think it would be useful.

I'm also quite keen on the idea of simple tests and grading to guide dancers as to when they're ready for the intermediate class, and also to let them know objectively just how good they are.

It was my regular teacher who told me I was ready for the intermediate class after a workshop where she had the opportunity to evaluate my skill level. I'd be a lot less sure I was ready for the move up without her guidance.

So I've moved from beginner to what I call "beginner intermediate" after being informally tested. I'd like to have a teacher tell me in another few months that I can really call myself "intermediate". It'd be a real motivation to improve too.

Pretty much everything else I can think you can be taught has some sort of measure of accomplishment – e.g. piano grades, or martial arts belts.

But that's just my feeling, and I know other people wouldn't be interested, so it'd be fine if it were optional.

It's interesting though that (from what I know from friends who do karate) one of the main things examined in some (most? all?) martial arts is safety, and you don't get to do "freestyle" fighting until you've passed a basic competency test.

Wow, this has been another long post! So, lastly, as for whether the "really good" dancers want to dance with me or not – well if not, that's too bad, it's their loss.

Cheers!

[David Bailey]

Perhaps a "new synthesis of cognitive and dance theory" could help, and I'd be interesting hearing what sort of thing you have in mind here.

I got lost around that point... Any new system, I humbly suggest, should have easy-to-understand aims and principles.

The idea of flyers or posters isn't a bad one. Maybe a weekly hand-out with this week's moves on, plus some technical tips? Or how about a booklet (maybe that costs money?) with details of all the beginner moves and guides on technique and "how to be a good dancer"? I think it would be useful.

Do they still sell the Ceroc Check booklet thing (can't remember proper name) with beginner's moves?

A "And this week, you did..." leaflet would be a great idea IMO, especially as beginner's classes are so standardised.

I'm also quite keen on the idea of simple tests and grading to guide dancers as to when they're ready for the intermediate class, and also to let them know objectively just how good they are.

Me too! But you probably guessed that...

[bigdjiver]

There is a lot of difference in a test that you have to pass and an informal nudge from someone to tell someone that they are ready for the intermediate classes. Ceroc changing the recommended number of classes from 6 to 12 has the advantages that if someone is not ready to move up after 10 weeks they do not feel in any way that they are a failure, and if, before that, someone tells them that they are ready to move up, they feel like a winner.

[Lynn]

It was my regular teacher who told me I was ready for the intermediate class after a workshop where she had the opportunity to evaluate my skill level. I'd be a lot less sure I was ready for the move up without her guidance.

So I've moved from beginner to what I call "beginner intermediate" after being informally tested. I'd like to have a teacher tell me in another few months that I can really call myself "intermediate". It'd be a real motivation to improve too.

Ie you received feedback - and from a reliable source - the teacher. That helped you judge the level you were at.

I'm not sure about 'tests' - that might put some people off - I think optional feedback - as a part of a workshop - where you dance a couple of dances with a teacher, or maybe one with a teacher and one being observed by a teacher, and then they give you individual feedback - what you are doing right and where you need to improve. It would need a bit more teacher time and input, but probably not everyone would opt for it, and for those who did it would be a help and be motivating. If done at workshop level it would also be targeting the dancers who want to improve, (I presume those who are comfortable with their level and want to enjoy the social aspect of a regular night as much as the dancing, wouldn't tend to go to workshops).

[Gary]

Standards and tests are appropriate for competitive environments. ...

... or for environments where an unskilled/inexperienced person can hurt other people (driving, martial arts, dancing).

[RogerR]

By discussing this we indicate that we have thought about Lead and follow.

I visited an intermediate class out of my home town recently, the teacher (f )started to have a go at the women present for dancing their own steps regardless of the men and the lead. It was horrid to realise that many of those 70 or so women didn't understand the concept of lead and follow though they were doing and intermediate class.

A man will NOT develop a confident, smooth and assertive lead UNLESS his early, formative partners learn to follow. Lead and follow is crucial to the dance and to the dancer's safety and pleasure.

[Lou]

I visited an intermediate class out of my home town recently, the teacher (f )started to have a go at the women present for dancing their own steps regardless of the men and the lead. It was horrid to realise that many of those 70 or so women didn't understand the concept of lead and follow though they were doing and intermediate class.

What a complete idiot. If the ladies in her class weren't following well, one would assume it's because they hadn't been taught to. It's not rocket science. And I can hardly see how "having a go" is really going to rectify the situation.

[Gus]

What a complete idiot. If the ladies in her class weren't following well, one would assume it's because they hadn't been taught to. It's not rocket science. And I can hardly see how "having a go" is really going to rectify the situation.

Not rocket science ... sorry Lou I dont think my experinces match that statement It is entirely possible (and a more than frequent occurance) to stand in front of a class, try to re-inforce a single point through examples, metaphor and repetition ... .and as soon as the freestyle starts watch the whole thing go out of the window!

I dont know why this is. I would say that the intelligence of an average MJ class is well abouve the norm .... does this actualy work against the dancers actualy taking on board what they're taught ... or is it a factor of the bad examples they are being taught elsewhere? While teaching in the North West I took great steps to re-inforce the correct balance, position and lead in and out of drops ... only to have this work all undone by two other teachers who kept on teaching it all the old 'macho' way

[Lou]

Not rocket science ...

Ach. I phrased it badly. Sorry! I posted whilst cross.

sorry Lou I dont think my experinces match that statement It is entirely possible (and a more than frequent occurance) to stand in front of a class, try to re-inforce a single point through examples, metaphor and repetition ... .and as soon as the freestyle starts watch the whole thing go out of the window!

But do you blame the dancers? Do you "have a go"? It's frustrating, yes. Or do you go away, re-evaluate & try to work on a better way of getting your point across?

I dont know why this is. I would say that the intelligence of an average MJ class is well abouve the norm .... does this actualy work against the dancers actualy taking on board what they're taught ... or is it a factor of the bad examples they are being taught elsewhere? While teaching in the North West I took great steps to re-inforce the correct balance, position and lead in and out of drops ... only to have this work all undone by two other teachers who kept on teaching it all the old 'macho' way

It must be very difficult when you have other organisations that don't evolve & also influence your dancers. It's also bloody hard as a dancer to get out of bad habits, even when you're aware of them and want to actively improve.

[Gus]

But do you blame the dancers? Do you "have a go"? It's frustrating, yes. Or do you go away, re-evaluate & try to work on a better way of getting your point across?

Funnily enough thats exactly why I started this thread.

My main attempt at doing it a "better way" was the Cool Catz concept, which had mixed results. It was that experience and listening to Amir's view on repetition (muscle memory) which made me think about other learning models. Not being a cognitive scientist I'm all too aware that there are many approaches that I know nothing about. The thrust of this thread was hopefully, for people with training/teaching expertise to suggest methods that may be transferable to the MJ framework.

Final point, maybe controversial ( ) ... to date I've seem a huge number of MJ instructors ... but I've not seen anyone teach classes from stage that teach the fundamentals for MJ dancers to learn how to dance rather than do moves ... and I include myself in that categorisation. To be precise, I'm an NOT talking about 'style', being a fantastic competition dancer etc. I'm talking about the basics that 'proper' dance styles coach you in, i.e. balance, sensitivity to partner, musical interpretation, use of floorspace etc. Views?

[Lou]

Funnily enough thats exactly why I started this thread.

Sorry to have diverged (but have I ever mentioned how I hate teachers blaming the students...?)!

You can carry on now!

[El Salsero Gringo]

Final point, maybe controversial ( ) ... to date I've seem a huge number of MJ instructors ... but I've not seen anyone teach classes from stage that teach the fundamentals for MJ dancers to learn how to dance rather than do moves ... and I include myself in that categorisation. To be precise, I'm an NOT talking about 'style', being a fantastic competition dancer etc. I'm talking about the basics that 'proper' dance styles coach you in, i.e. balance, sensitivity to partner, musical interpretation, use of floorspace etc. Views?

Hannes Emrich did a lot of this at yesterday's 'squins ballroom workshop. Particularly balance, and sensitivity to partner. Admittedly that wasn't MJ, but it could be done - especially in workshops where there's more time to dwell on 'details' (which aren't merely details, I agree.)

My feeling is that to teach someone to move their body by instructing them "raise the left hand, step forward, turn under your arm" etc., or by giving them an example to watch, is a very inefficient method of teaching someone how and where to move their body. How many times have you watched a move, or listened to a description - and thought that it was very simple, yet when you've come to try it yourself you suddenly find you have *no* idea how to put it into practice? I'm sure there's a much better way to teach this kind of thing, but I don't know what it is, yet.

[Chef]

Final point, maybe controversial ( ) ... to date I've seem a huge number of MJ instructors ... but I've not seen anyone teach classes from stage that teach the fundamentals for MJ dancers to learn how to dance rather than do moves ... and I include myself in that categorisation. To be precise, I'm an NOT talking about 'style', being a fantastic competition dancer etc. I'm talking about the basics that 'proper' dance styles coach you in, i.e. balance, sensitivity to partner, musical interpretation, use of floorspace etc. Views?

I have only ever found lessons about the "how" to dance (I am taking this to mean technique of dance) on weekenders or dance holidays. I found these lessons by far the most useful that I ever had. Once I had managed to take these lessons on board and have those fundamental skills a vast number of moves that I had been taught before but was unable to to suddenly became possible and comfortable. I realised that I had been doing it all the wrong way around (ie moves first and technique later). I had wanted to be taught lots of moves only to find that I could execute none of them well. After these lessons at the weekenders I found that I could revisit all these moves that I had been taught in the past and do much better with them.

These lessons were given to me by Nigel and Nina. Their classes on spinning, lead and follow, musicality and performance as well as Amirs classes on similar themes were great and real "eureka" moments for me. I have long expressed to them my wish that these lessons should be the subject of an in depth video collection or an intense weekend of tution. The feeling of bewilderment as I left these classes thinking "why didn't we get taught this stuff before" will stay with me. Without these skills (IMHO) nothing else seems to work.

I was very heartened to find at the Jivetime weeeknd at Hastings last March that the lesson line up included classes on "lead and follow", "how to dance to slow music", "How to dance to fast music" and "musicality". Hopefully, with these lessons, more people will now be able to get even more enjoyment out of their dancing than they did before as I have done.

I don't think you can make these lessons a requirement of a MJ night so that they are some kind of hurdle for new dancers to pass. You would just lose too many people that would give up. They would be useful as additional lessons offered to intermediate dancers at the venue once a month (having the normal intermediate class and the technique class running at the same time).

The old saying "it ain't what you do it is the way that you do it" is true. I am still learning and will be for quite some time.

[David Bailey]

So, meandering back to the start of the topic (crazy fool!) would I be right in guessing the consensus is that "yes, we're teaching beginners correctly"?

Certainly it seems to me that most of the reforms and effort Ceroc has made over the past couple of years has been in this direction...

[El Salsero Gringo]

So, meandering back to the start of the topic (crazy fool!) would I be right in guessing the consensus is that "yes, we're teaching beginners correctly"?

Certainly it seems to me that most of the reforms and effort Ceroc has made over the past couple of years has been in this direction...

Here's a crazy radical idea: bin the Taxi-dancer's workshop. Let the taxi-dancers do the intermediate class as 'experienced students' so that at least a few people in the intermediate class have a clue what's going on. And in place of the taxi-dancers' workshop, have a secondary teacher (maybe not CTA qualified, but certainly with more bona-fides to teach than the average taxi-dancer) teach a 45 minute lead-follow or technique workshop - instead of rehashing the beginners moves.

If you make the beginners workshop interesting and challenging in its own right then you'll solve the problem of how to teach beginners better and also stop people moving up too soon. In fact, you'll probably have to limit the numbers to keep the entire intermediate class from wanting to attend.

[Baruch]

Here's a crazy radical idea: bin the Taxi-dancer's workshop. Let the taxi-dancers do the intermediate class as 'experienced students' so that at least a few people in the intermediate class have a clue what's going on. And in place of the taxi-dancers' workshop, have a secondary teacher (maybe not CTA qualified, but certainly with more bona-fides to teach than the average taxi-dancer) teach a 45 minute lead-follow or technique workshop - instead of rehashing the beginners moves.

If you make the beginners workshop interesting and challenging in its own right then you'll solve the problem of how to teach beginners better and also stop people moving up too soon. In fact, you'll probably have to limit the numbers to keep the entire intermediate class from wanting to attend.

I must say that's an interesting idea, and one that could well work. Which probably means that it'll never be done