Following - the Dreamstate

[DavidB]

I've noticed that female west coast dancers are active followers as they are very stylistic and they are probably passive in the sense that they can follow incredibly well too!

WCS is slightly different because there are times when the man is leading, and times when he isn't. It is fairly standardised, and this helps the good ladies to know when to switch.

In MJ you don't get this. The lead can be almost constant, and the 'not leading' can happen at any time. So the switch can't be assumed. I'm still getting used to this idea. At the moment it seems to be different depending on the lady. It is a bit like doing musical interpretation by learning each song off by heart.

David

[Divissima]

Apologies for backtracking a little to earlier in the thread....

Following in a dream-like state, that's where it's at. I just love dances like that. It doesn't happen everytime, but that's what makes them so special.

I agree, this kind of connection is my definition of dancing nirvana. Elusive, but it can be almost euphoric when you experience it. Every now and again, I have a night (or Sunday afternoon) when I can really connect to the lead and disengage the conscious mind. I need to work on my active following, as defined by DavidB, and switching between them. If I'm connecting to the lead in this way, I find that even a split-second of conscious thought disrupts the whole thing - brain goes from delicious flow to *arg, does not compute* - but what a skill it would be to be able to switch between passive and active following.

[Trish]

L - How about fish?
F - Yes, a nice juicy steak sounds great
L - I fancy something different, like monkfish poached in milk, asparagus tips, with a Hollandaise sauce on the side.
F - Yes, a nice rare steak, with chips & mushy peas sounds great.
L - What do you want to drink? A nice light chardonnay?
F - Beer - thats a great idea.

2 minutes later they are having paella, and enjoying it, but then the Maitre'd walks over...
MD - I'm a world renowned expert in all types of food, and therefore most know far more than you. You are not allowed to enjoy food that has no foundation. I suggest a deep fried breeze block, with a side order of gravel, and washed down with some quick drying cement.
L - [confused] But that isn't food. I thought you said you were an expert.
MD - Of course I'm an expert. Surely you have heard of me? Arlene...?

Excellent!!!

[DavidB]

With the really good ladies, you get 'active' followers and 'passive' followers.

A couple of people have suggested to me that this distinction is a bit limiting, and that there are other ways of following. So just to clarify things, I was only talking in relation to Dreamstate/flow, and one opposite way of following that is still good.

There are lots of other ways of following, and plenty of skills involved. Maybe someone who can follow would be better to provide the details. All I can comment on is how it affects the leading.

David

[Trish]

I realised that there was only one person with whom I didn't 'think' - I just switch off and have very little idea of why I follow - consciously anyway - Amir. I wondered if this is part-way explained by his teaching at Jango last week, when he said that he leads a move, allows the woman to follow and then follows her. It seems to me that this way of leading means that there is virtually no chance of the woman messing up - and so no fear of missing a lead - and a wonderfully 'safe' dance.

I'm not sure I get this. Surely this can only happen if the lady is leading? If you are a "passive" follower, he'd have nothing to follow would he? Although I guess if you are "active", he might do. Am I completely misunderstanding this? Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of dancing with Amir (or even seeing him dance ), so I'm not sure really what this means. Can someone enlighten me please?

[Divissima]

I'm not sure I get this. Surely this can only happen if the lady is leading? If you are a "passive" follower, he'd have nothing to follow would he? Although I guess if you are "active", he might do. Am I completely misunderstanding this? Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of dancing with Amir (or even seeing him dance ), so I'm not sure really what this means. Can someone enlighten me please?

Hmmm... I can give it a go.

I think what Amir was saying was that the lead should instigate the movement (so move together with direction and distance to travel and any other features), the follower (however they are following - actively or passively for want of other terminology) follows and then the lead adjusts his next move to what the follower has done (for example if the follower hasn't quite ended up where the lead intended). In the context of the lesson Amir was teaching it made a lot more sense (honest) and he did say that it was a technique perhaps more suited to Argentinian tango where the dynamic between lead and follow is slightly different from MJ.

[Feelingpink]

I'm not sure I get this. Surely this can only happen if the lady is leading? If you are a "passive" follower, he'd have nothing to follow would he? Although I guess if you are "active", he might do. Am I completely misunderstanding this? Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of dancing with Amir (or even seeing him dance ), so I'm not sure really what this means. Can someone enlighten me please?

I'll try to explain in the context of something Amir taught recently and if I've misunderstood, perhaps someone else can chip in. If the guy wants to do a move where he and his partner turn 90 degrees from where they started, he might lead this move but realise when his partner starts to step that she is only going to go some of the way round, so instead of manhandling her to "make" the 90 degrees, he realises what is happening and accepts that they're only going to get to 60 degrees and follows her there. The woman feels as if she's followed the move (and to some extent, she has) and they've made a lovely smooth 60 degree turn together.

Does that make sense?

[spindr]

The man expresses an intention, the lady follows and the man follows the lady.

------

The demonstration that I've seen of this has been in Argentine Tango, where the man expresses an intention to move forwards (using frame, chest, slight lean, etc.).
*Then* the lady follows and moves her leg backwards.
*After* the lady moves, the man steps in to the vacated space -- following the lady.
Then the lady completes her step.
Then the man completes his step fractionally after the lady's step.

Obviously, the man has to wait for the lady to yield her space, before he can use it -- otherwise shinpads become necessary.

-----

Don't know quite how applicable it is to a dance style that's less open -- although I was always taught (in ballroom) that the man should follow after the woman -- at least if she starts travelling when spinning, but more from a semi-safety view.

Certainly if we're both spinning, I'll tend to try to complete the rotation first so I can be ready "to catch" -- at least while I'm unsure of how well my partner can spin.

SpinDr.

[Andreas]

... or in many cases:

L: "¿Cuándo está el tren siguiente a ParÃ*s?"
F: "????????????!"

classic

[Andreas]

Being a bit more serious.

With the really good ladies, you get 'active' followers and 'passive' followers. (If you can think of a better description then please tell me.)

The 'Dreamstate' Feelingpink talks about is a 'passive' follower. She has absolutely no preconceptions about what you are going to lead, or what she is going to do. The leader can then be as creative as he wants to be. I've seen this taken to its extreme by some lambada dancers where the lady is almost like a rag doll. The first stage I notice is when the lady keeps going until you stop her. As soon as she is doing this, you can just redirect her momentum to lead her.

An 'active' follower is always trying to add something to the dance. As a leader you have to be watching all the time so that you let her finish what she is doing. But as the dance is less about preserving her momentum, it becomes easier to change the speed of the dance.

I am not saying one is better than the other - the ability to do both is probably the ideal. Some of the best dances I've had have been when it keeps changing from one to the other. It depends on the music as well. Some songs just suit a particular way of dancing.

Nice thread - it has given me something to think about.

David

From a lead point of view, I think, the major difference is in using 'stops' or strong leads to create pauses or slow down the dance versus 'bungee'. I noticed that I tend to slow the other person down through bungee effect if she follows (what you call) passively as I do want to preserve the momentum. Whereas in the other case the lead is much more direct/determined and there is little doubt about what I am asking for

While that dreamstate is definitely also a matter of dance partner, to a great part it definitely depends on the music, as well. Neither of those factors alone can generate it, I believe.

Very good explanation there, David!

[Magic Hans]

I never get the beginners class 100% right. Even 90% right would be an improvement - forgetting moves, adding in bits, getting the timing wrong, skipping a return, adding in a return, putting in a double spin instead of a single, stepping in instead of out, leading the lady to the wrong place, moving to the wrong place, catching with the wrong hand, not letting go of the right hand,...

*sigh* just give me freestyle where I can make these mistakes look planned

I know what you mean!! For my part, I put it down to either:

a) my inability to listen .... although I can be really good at this! honest, even though I'm a bloke!
b) the ease at which I forget - very plausible
d) my objection to be constrained (to a routine)- [did I forget c)?]

Ian

[curious]

From a lead point of view, I think, the major difference is in using 'stops' or strong leads to create pauses or slow down the dance versus 'bungee'. I noticed that I tend to slow the other person down through bungee effect if she follows (what you call) passively as I do want to preserve the momentum. Whereas in the other case the lead is much more direct/determined and there is little doubt about what I am asking for

The elasticity sounds a bit like WCS.

While that dreamstate is definitely also a matter of dance partner, to a great part it definitely depends on the music, as well. Neither of those factors alone can generate it, I believe.

IMHO the passive bit comes from dancing regularly with people, and is great if you want to dance and chat. What's really great for me is when you build up a level of awareness with a regular partner that allows you both to seamlessly switch between active and passive without thinking about it. The music, of course, can set the scene for a fantastic dance, but with the right partner you can always get to the dreamstate.

[Trish]

Thanks Divissima and Feeling Pink

That makes it clearer, I see what you mean. I think I sometimes do this when I'm leading, as it's easier than dragging some poor woman around against her will when she's not quite finished the move in the position you expect her to. I don't think I really make a big thing of it, but it certainly helps the flow of things. It especially seems to be the case when you've got a follower who likes to step slightly to the side every time - although you do sometimes end up going round in circles because of it! I can certainly see it's necessary in Argentine Tango from what I've seen of it, otherwise you'd probably be covered in bruises! I'm hopefully going to start Ballroom lessons soon, so I'll have more of an idea then whether it applies to that as well.

Nice thread, some really interesting stuff here! I'm hoping to get some lovely "dreamstate" dancing at Camber next month - I think the combination of lovely music, great dancers and no sleep really helps!!

[Rhythm King]

Sorry, this is a bit of an essay. . .

Following on from discussion with some ladies recently, I’ve noticed great variations in my lead and follow with certain dancers. Obviously there are the usual variations in my lead/style/timing, which can vary, amongst other things, according to my mood, fatigue, liking (or disliking) the particular track, and whether or not I’m in awe of my partner, which can actually be a big deal. I also have a terrible habit of changing my mind at short notice, depending on how I feel the dance is going, or suddenly hearing something in the music. You may rest assured that I am my own harshest critic in these respects.
But it is the differences in following, from people with whom I may dance fairly frequently, that are my topic. I sometimes find I need a couple of dances to “shake down� and settle on a mutually satisfying lead and follow. Me getting used to her, her getting used to me. I consider this fairly normal.
Have leaders noticed though, that sometimes someone they are used to dancing with, is acting in a completely different style? This takes two forms for me. Firstly, where a lady has been dancing with, for example a particularly bouncy, strong, “Cerocy� leader, and takes a while to calm down to something smoother and more flowing (with less anticipation ). (And I’d be the first to admit to having been one of those strong-leading Ceroc Intermediate move-hounds until I learned better ) Otherwise, I see someone dancing with one of the pantheon of Dance Gods (note not using the “E� word today ) and think, “Hmm, I’d like to dance with her�. It then occurs to me that whilst she may have been totally under the spell and fabulous lead of said D-G, when she then graces me with the next dance, she appears to have come with certain preconceptions of how she’s going to dance with me and follow my lead. I.E. she’ll switch off and follow perfectly in a dream state with him, but is intent on doing her own thing with me, perhaps missing some of the more subtle leads, or anticipating. I then get flustered and feel that perhaps I’m not giving my partner the best experience. I’m specifically not referring to active following here, which is a different thing entirely.
Please don’t take offence followers, I’m not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, or being critical of you, I’m just wondering if other leaders have similar experiences, or can comment/advise.

R-K

(goes and hides under a rock in case of flaming)

[David Bailey]

whether or not I’m in awe of my partner, which can actually be a big deal.

totally - sometimes with topflight dancers, it's just superb, and sometimes you find yourself falling over your and her feet - and sometimes both in the same dance. Trying too hard to impress your partner with your wonderful moves is usually the best way to foot-falling-over-ville...

"Relaxed focussing" is just the hardest thing to do, isn't it?

[Mary]

"Relaxed focussing" is just the hardest thing to do, isn't it?

M

[MartinHarper]

Going back to this technique of lead, then follow, then follow the follow...
One problem I find is that this approach sometimes gets me into positions or places that I don't know any exits for. I guess this is one advantage that the likes of Amir have: they know so many moves, consciously or unconsciously, that it'd be very rare for the ladies to get them into situations they can't find a way out of.

[Gary]

Going back to this technique of lead, then follow, then follow the follow...

Also along this line: Does anyone know any good exercises for teaching/learning this technique? It's something which (I think) I've started to do, but I'd like to learn it better/faster, and eventually like to be able to help other folks to do it.

[Yogi_Bear]

Hmmm... I can give it a go.

I think what Amir was saying was that the lead should instigate the movement (so move together with direction and distance to travel and any other features), the follower (however they are following - actively or passively for want of other terminology) follows and then the lead adjusts his next move to what the follower has done (for example if the follower hasn't quite ended up where the lead intended). In the context of the lesson Amir was teaching it made a lot more sense (honest) and he did say that it was a technique perhaps more suited to Argentinian tango where the dynamic between lead and follow is slightly different from MJ.

No, this makes a lot of sense, and don't most reasonably experienced leaders act this way anyhow? I usually try not to think in terms of leading moves but instead co-operating in a flow of movement - I think someone else commented similarly. It makes sense for the leader to adjust their movements according to how the follower responds to the lead. This may be especially true where the lead has been weak or ambiguous - the follower might then decide to take the initiative and the leader will follow...or am I assuming too much?

[David Bailey]

No, this makes a lot of sense, and don't most reasonably experienced leaders act this way anyhow? I usually try not to think in terms of leading moves but instead co-operating in a flow of movement - I think someone else commented similarly. It makes sense for the leader to adjust their movements according to how the follower responds to the lead. This may be especially true where the lead has been weak or ambiguous - the follower might then decide to take the initiative and the leader will follow...or am I assuming too much?

Yay, I finallly understood this whole lead-follow-follow thing. That's a great explanation, thanks Yogi_Bear. Whew, I was getting worried there...

Yes, of course, the leader should adjust the moves depending on the follower's actions - in fact, I don't usually plan moves in advance, I just wait to see where we are at a particular point, handholds and positions, then do a move that works well from that position. I mean, I have a vague idea at the start of the track about the type of moves I'll do, based on the music and the follower, especially if she has favourites, but when/where to do them depends on so many factors, I don't even bother to think ahead too much nowdays - probably just getting lazier... (perhaps I should do competitions...!).